Are we in Jesus's Reign?

by ballistic 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  Utopian Reformist

  To Bobby (You Know):

  Perhaps, the watchtower quotes posted at the beginning of this thread state much more than the obvious. As a staunch supporter, you believe and endorse that christian faith is only valid if it begins with "appointed human authority" thru an organization, and the WTBS is such an entity.

  Ask yourself, did Jesus make BOLD and FREQUENT statements asserting his divinely supported authority? Did Jesus establish a continued pattern of "announcing" his authority and consistently reminding everyone PUBLICLY of his authority?

  Rather, on many occasions, Jesus refused to answer such questions. His authority became evident through the content of his teachings and examples from his conduct. This produced respect and admiration, followed by loyalty and love. It did not require a CONSTANT affirmation of "authoritative reminders" to establish his credentials.

  His miracles, teachings and conduct accomplished all that was necessary, without making audacious declarations. Thus, it was IMPOSSIBLE to prove him blasphemous under the law.

  I won't even bother boring you with the scriptural accounts, they should already be memorized in your head!

  Think about it!
• 

  You Know

  d-tective:

  According to scripture: after Jesus was crucified, was he not resurrected? After he was resurrected, did he not go to heaven where he was enthroned?

  No. That's not correct. After Christ was resurrected he went and sat down at the right hand of Jehovah until such time as he is given dominion.

  And his return: according to scripture when in relation to armageddon was he to return? Was it before armageddon at the beginning of the great trib? Was it in the middle of the end of times? Or was it at the END of the end of times? I won't even go into the how "all eyes will see" is suddenly figurative! But I wouldn't mind some answers to my questions as it could aid in my understanding of this strange interpretation of 1914.

  It sounds like you need a Bible Study. I would be happy to discuss these things with you via e-mail, but I am unwilling to in this forum.

  / You Know
• 

  detective

  Yk,
  I'm not sure why you'd be unwilling to answer my questions here? This thread does seem an appropriate place to answer as it could be beneficial to not only myself but to those lurking who could benefit from this discussion. I tend to believe that if you have to whisper your beliefs so that a room full of people don't hear you then maybe your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny? If you really feel that a thread on a discussion forum devoted to this topic isn't the place to discuss the topic then I'm pretty surprised. Mind you, I'm not trying to start trouble with you as I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this matter. Maybe you could explain why you wouldn't discuss it here so that I could at least understand your hesitation?

  So far I understand you to be saying that Jesus was taken to heaven and seated aside the father just after he was resurrected.

  I also asked ..."And his return: according to scripture when in relation to armageddon was he to return? Was it before armageddon at the beginning of the great trib? Was it in the middle of the end of times? Or was it at the END of the end of times?"

  I think it's a fairly straightforward question. Do you think, if it's not too much trouble, you could answer maybe that much? Suggesting a bible study to answer a simple question, while an interesting concept, isn't particularly time efficient.

  You'd think I was asking some incredibly scandalous question! Listen, my email is open and I'm happy to hear an answer to my question. That'd be quite nice and I'd appreciate it! I'd prefer it if you felt that the responses you offer would be worthy of open discussion but I suppose we all have our peculiarities!? Thank you for offering whatever assistance you can, You Know.
• 

  You Know

  Hillary's Step:

  The problem is that the only means that you have at your disposal to display this loyalty in an way that is remotely understandable to those looking in, has been to start you own parallel religion, complete with its own prophetic interpretations and justifications.

  That's true in a sense, although I am quite certain that I am of the same faith as my brothers in the organization whom I defend. In all modesty, I think you are privileged to be an observer to the struggle that is being carried out in this particular theater, of which Paul said that even the angels were spectators. I am well aware of my somewhat unique, if not odd, situation. But, there are numerous examples in Scripture where the odd man out eventually was instumental in some phase of Jehovah's purpose. So, my purpose is not to defend Watchtower dogma and staus-quo, but rather to demonstrate that true faith can overcome all. I am sure the less-bias observers appreciate that witness.

  Now, I cannot say that I blame you as I know many, many average JW’s who when trying to rationalize the excesses of the WTS have reached similar conclusions to yourself.

  Sure, we are each told to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." So, that's what we are doing.

  In fact I questioned one JW I recently, whom I have great respect for, and who has concluded that the "Organization’ is living in a time of judgment

  Actually, no, the judgment is yet future. It is going to get much much worse to keep one's faith.

  YK, given that you are likely one of a very small group on this planet that feels that the scriptural applications that you place on recent events within the WTS are to be fulfilled in the way you frequently proclaim, you must also surely entertain the possibility that you are incorrect.

  I have been wrong many times. But that's not the point. My faith is such that I have never entertained the slightest doubt that Jehovah's purpose is not going to be realized in this period. I guess in that respect Jehovah has just blessed me with such a strong faith that I have never waivered in a lack of faith as many of you obviously have. Why, the very existence of the apostate movement in this period is one of the biggest developments of recent years that indicates the nearness of God's judgment. Why should I doubt that?

  Many on this Board would not accept, perhaps not even understand your prophetic inclinations. What would you have them do, presented as they have been by the same evidence of WTS corruption and deceitfulness that you seek to explain away by scriptural means?

  I have no doubt that most readers cannot possibly grasp the truth. That is not to be unexpected. Paul wrote about those who would be misled by charlatans as "always learning and yet never coming to an accurate knowledge of truth." But, if there are any sincere of heart they will listen. That's the way it works.

  You rather cunningly made an allusion in your earlier note to the end that the early Christians had false expectations and made many mistakes, and of course you are again correct in this statement. Where you begin to fail in your argument is that you state that Christ had to attend to, and realign their thinking, but what you fail to mention is how he did this.

  I was not "cunningly" trying to mislead anyone.

  Yes, he used human agencies to sort out the failings of his people, as he did many times in the past. For example, was Jeremiah an ‘unclean dog’ for publicly declaring the failings of Gods people, or a man filled with honor and courage?

  Are you comparing apostates to Jeremiah? Who is using cunning here? For one thing, Jeremiah was commissioned by Jehovah God even before he was born. Do you have a commission from Jehovah to publicly expose the shortcomings of Jehovah's Witnesses? Furthermore, Jeremiah, and all the prophets for that matter, not only had a direct appointment from God, but they also were faithful to God themselves. They upheld God's soveriegnty. No apostate Dub even comes close to meeting that criteria.

  Remember YK, where you see ‘unclean dogs’ and ‘apostate Bozo’s’, God may see his stumbled little sheep.

  The point at which one of Jehovah's stumbled little sheep becomes a finger-pointer and accuser, they cease being a stumbled little sheep and become something somewhat more offensive in nature. / You Know
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  AGuest

  No. That's not correct. After Christ was resurrected he went and sat down at the right hand of Jehovah until such time as he is given dominion.

  Oh, goodness, YK... please read Psalm 110:1, 2 AND 1 Corinthians 15:24, 25... and GET THE SENSE OF IT:

  Psalm 110:1 -

  "The JAH said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool... rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

  1 Corinthians 15:24, 25 -

  "Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

  What this is SAYING, YK, is that my Lord began his rule over his 'belongings', as a king and priest in the manner of Melchizedek, and CONTINUES to rule... IN THE MIDST OF HIS ENEMIES.

  Hear... or refrain. Follow the Lamb... or follow earthling man. Your choice.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
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  607BCisAbigLIE

  YK,

  At least you gave attention to my post, and I read very carefully those you write yourself. And it is very interesting, but I cannot return to those WT teachings. I've been trough that.

  The first time I begun to wonder about the JWs beliefs, as I were a bible student, I was pretty much thinking like you do now. I couldn't see the evidences, cause there are (and you have maybe notice some by yourself, as I can see in your post, without beeing precise about those), because I couldn't really prove by myself that the WT was wrong. But be carefull here: I don't say that the WT is ALL wrong, but they are in many important issues.

  So after a while, and not long ago, I got myself a computer and the Internet. At the beginning, I was affraid to go on the net searching for Jehovah Witnesses web sites. But after a while I took my courage and typed "jehovah witnesses" in my search engine. Oh boy!!! I couldn't have been aware of so much information I was looking for in years!!!!!! But when it became obvious that there was very good web sites about the subject, showing proof with what they say about the WT teachings, I use caution. Though I know that good information is helpfull to clarify an issue, it is oubvious that some sites are only WT-bashing crap. Intelligent criticizm on a subject can be very usefull to demistify the WT teaching; otherwise some of them that you call "apostate" are very faithfull heartly poeple. But when they can prove when an organization is telling lies to its follower, they cannot continue to teach lies to the population who is not aware.

  I know that the WT hasn't to be "true" all the time, that's impossible. And maybe there is something good in it, but I doubt it. Sorry. But when it become oubvious that their teaching is somewhat going far in the wrong direction, how can you say that it is the Truth anymore?

  Beside, if it feels good for you to stay in those beliefs, that your affair. I won't even try to get you out of it. But if someday you come with about the same conclusions that there is something wrong with those beliefs, as I do, I will be the first to help you understand your doubts (I am sure you already have some, but I can be wrong), cause doubting is in a way a good sign of intelligence. Anyone should have the right to discuss, give his opinion (and I even invite you to continue to post about your position) on an issue, every one is welcome.

  So may you continue your work, but beware that someday you could come on same conclusion as mine or others.

  With regards,

  607BCisAbigLIE
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  avengers

  Stay off the beast meat. You'll get drunk and crazy.

  Religion is opium for the people
  Karl Marx
• 

  607BCisAbigLIE

  To Erich:

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ...Lord, Christ and Saviour. He DOESN'T need ANY organization on earth to operate under God's will; nowhere in the Bible you'll see that an earthly organization was ever needed by God to accomplish
  His will...
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Nonsense. How could Jesus' instruction in Mat.27:19 become fulfilled without having an earthly organization?

  Ok. First of all, I think there is a mistake in you Bible reference, cause that verse tells nothing about it. I think it should have been Mat. 19:27 but correct me if i'm wrong. Beside, I read Mat. 19:27-30, and I want to comment on it.

  First, I can see that in those verses that there is a purpose to quit everything to follow Jesus. Emphasize on the last word: JESUS. Not an organization. Those verses mean, for me, more than an organization. It is a call for all mankind to walk in the path of Christ. Nowhere in those line we should see an "earthly organization", cause Jesus speaks about an heavenly one, oubviously. And we dont see, indeed, the word "organization" in those verses. Sorry to tell you, but i take those lines for what they are: a call for all mankind to follow his path. Maybe some will need help to accomplish it, but not all. And surely not from ones who claim to be in the Truth, but cannot really be sure of it. No one can be sure, even JWs. God will not judge humans on what organization or religion one follows, but on the condition of heart of that person. And believe me, outside of the WT there is more than you can count (refers to Rev. 7:9, maybe?). Maybe there is an organization, but one that no one can see. Maybe it is in our heart, under our commitment into the Blood of Christ.

  But I should wait for your comment on those verses, not only a statement out of explanation.
• 

  607BCisAbigLIE

  BTW, Erich, don't quote my post partially. You have cut the first sentence in half, as the last one in your quote. But I must apologize . It would have make sense to quote the first part of the sentence, 'cause that was all I was talking about in the first place.