Am I a trinitarian ?

by PSacramento 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  reniaa

  the first and most important commandment according to Jesus is this one.

  Deuteronomy 6:4 (New International Version)

  4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, is one YHWH. [a]

  trinitarians have to get past it because it shows YHWH is the only true God and the ONE.

  I found another interesting scripture recently. Here Jesus is talking to Jews.

  John 8:54
  Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

  The jews God is the father only according to Jesus.

  That Jesus is given much and glorified by his father God is understood but does any of that translate to making Jesus God himself?

  1 Corinthians 15:27
  For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

  Trinity in all it's versions has one commonality it is trying to say 3 = 1 God because the bible is very Clear there can be only ONE Almighty God to be worshiped

  and Jesus confirms this when satan tempts him and notice Jesus is Showing who should be worshipped.

  Matthew 4:10
  Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "

  again quoting scripture in reference to YHWH. and here Jesus confirming which God we should worship even more specifically

  John 4:23-24 (New International Version)

  23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  Again confirming the father is God and the one to be worshipped and he calls God "him" not them? even if you go with 3 separate persons under 'God' you need a lot of cognitive dissonance on this scripture.

  Remember trinity isn't trying to say Jesus is 'a god' or divine-like with qualities from his father, they want to worship him and make him into ThE almighty God 3 = 1

  Reniaa
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PS

  ...all that God is Jesus is and all that jesus is, God is.

  Do you mean, all that the Father is Jesus is and all that Jesus is, the father is?

  The reason I ask, is because the bible teaches Jesus is still God and man today.

  On a side note, last time I checked, no where ( in the bible) does belief in Jesus being God equate to being a Christian, what defines a Christain, in short, is his/her belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, our Lord and Saviour, that he died and was ressurected and is itting at the right hand of God.

  Well, like I tell JWs

  John 5:22The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

  I honor the father as God. Why don't you honor the Son the same way?
• 

  Deputy Dog

  reniaa

  4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, is one YHWH. [a]

  trinitarians have to get past it because it shows YHWH is the only true God and the ONE.

  Trinitarian don't have to get by it they believe it.

  Did you ever figure out what came down from heaven?
• 

  isaacaustin

  Renia said:

  the first and most important commandment according to Jesus is this one.

  Deuteronomy 6:4 (New International Version)

  4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, is one YHWH. [a]

  trinitarians have to get past it because it shows YHWH is the only true God and the ONE.

  My reply: That is not a problematic verse for trinitarians. The Hebrew word rendered here 'one' is echad- which has a meaning of unified rather than the cardinal number 'one', as opposed to Yachwid, which can only denote one, as in singular.

  I found another interesting scripture recently. Here Jesus is talking to Jews.

  Reniaa said:

  John 8:54
  Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

  The jews God is the father only according to Jesus.

  My reply: Of course, the Jews did not accept Jesus and paid dearly. They took offense to his statemnts showing them who he was.

  Reniaa said:

  That Jesus is given much and glorified by his father God is understood but does any of that translate to making Jesus God himself?

  1 Corinthians 15:27
  For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

  My reply:

  Shows the operation of the Trinity- the perfect submission of the Son to the Father and carrying out of his Father's will, their operation as one spiritual flesh.

  Reniaa said: Trinity in all it's versions has one commonality it is trying to say 3 = 1 God because the bible is very Clear there can be only ONE Almighty God to be worshiped

  My reply: 3 persons operating as one being. Adam and Eve were 2 persons yet one flesh.

  Reniaa said: and Jesus confirms this when satan tempts him and notice Jesus is Showing who should be worshipped.

  Matthew 4:10
  Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "

  My reply: Jesus refused worship to Satan. Nowhere did he say he is not to be worshipped, only that the Devil was not and only God is. Jesus did not deny being God.

  Reniaa said: again quoting scripture in reference to YHWH. and here Jesus confirming which God we should worship even more specifically

  John 4:23-24 (New International Version)

  23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  Again confirming the father is God and the one to be worshipped and he calls God "him" not them? even if you go with 3 separate persons under 'God' you need a lot of cognitive dissonance on this scripture.

  My reply: worship the Father, yes. And in John ch 5 he expounds on how one is to do this. By worshipping the Son....honoring the Son exactly as the Father...showing the Son does everything the father does exactly as the Father does it.

  Reniaa said: Remember trinity isn't trying to say Jesus is 'a god' or divine-like with qualities from his father,

  My reply: correct

  Reniaa said: they want to worship him and make him into ThE almighty God 3 = 1

  Reniaa

  My reply: We don't want to do anything other than what Jesus himself revelaed to us.
• 

  reniaa

  hi isaac

  well nice try on echad but wrong and every jew could tell you why. Shema - deut 6:4

  Because the Shema is part of the foundational concept of Judaism, and because of the need to proof-text their doctrine, the Trinitarians twist the Shema totally out of its context of how it was originally given to the Jewish people by the hand of Moses. They wish to inject into the Shema the idea of a three-person Godhead, even though the Shema along with its complete original meaning and context out dates Christianity by more than a thousand years!

  What they will willfully withhold and avoid is that echad , like out English word "one" is an adjective and is subject to the noun(s) it's describing. In English, as well as in Biblical Hebrew "one/ echad" can be used to describe one set of eyes, as well as one nose on a face. Example:
  "There is one [ echad ] alone, and there is not a second.." - Ecclesiastes 4:8
  .
  There are not multiple subjects in the opening declaration of the Shema to be united with the adjective, echad . "God" is the single subject and "one" is that single subject's adjective. Again, there are no two or three subjects in the opening statement of the Shema to united under the adjective "one" ! Multiple subjects such as three God-persons within the Shema are only a figment of a Trinitarian's imagination. It's simply not in the text. A Trinity can only be injected into the text outside the confine structures of the Biblical Hebrew and English languages.

  as this jewish site confirms in the shema deut 6:4 ONE is ONE never 3.

  http://judaism-now.blogspot.com/2009/04/trinity-part-two-echad.html

  john 8:54 is Jesus declaring he is the promised messiah nothing to do with the jews rejecting him as God.

  Your explanation of 1 cor 15 27 shows your cognitive disonance reading the person father into the word God when it says 'it does not include God' to equate it with your theology. Yet the context keeps it to meaning completely God as God only, as the same scripture shows Jesus will subject himself to God.

  Adam and eve are a race of humans you cannot use them as comparative to Jesus, father and spirit it would make them a race of gods thus polytheistic.

  the word 'honour' is not the word 'worship' and if john wanted us to worship Jesus he would have said it. And JEsus is very specific about worshiping the father why wouldn't he mention himself and the spirit in this scripture?

  John 4:23-24 (New International Version)

  23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  hi isaac

  well nice try on echad but wrong and every jew could tell you why. Shema - deut 6:4

  Because the Shema is part of the foundational concept of Judaism, and because of the need to proof-text their doctrine, the Trinitarians twist the Shema totally out of its context of how it was originally given to the Jewish people by the hand of Moses. They wish to inject into the Shema the idea of a three-person Godhead, even though the Shema along with its complete original meaning and context out dates Christianity by more than a thousand years!

  What they will willfully withhold and avoid is that echad , like out English word "one" is an adjective and is subject to the noun(s) it's describing. In English, as well as in Biblical Hebrew "one/ echad" can be used to describe one set of eyes, as well as one nose on a face. Example:
  "There is one [ echad ] alone, and there is not a second.." - Ecclesiastes 4:8
  .
  There are not multiple subjects in the opening declaration of the Shema to be united with the adjective, echad . "God" is the single subject and "one" is that single subject's adjective. Again, there are no two or three subjects in the opening statement of the Shema to united under the adjective "one" ! Multiple subjects such as three God-persons within the Shema are only a figment of a Trinitarian's imagination. It's simply not in the text. A Trinity can only be injected into the text outside the confine structures of the Biblical Hebrew and English languages.

  as this jewish site confirms in the shema deut 6:4 ONE is ONE never 3.

  http://judaism-now.blogspot.com/2009/04/trinity-part-two-echad.html

  My reply: Reniaa, this does not pose a problem. I agree, as do trinitarians that there is one Jehovah, one being. The three persons making up this one being are in perfect unity. the Bible shows that 'echad' can absolutely be a compound unity.

  Gen 2:24

  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

  or take on Gen 34;22 for size

  Gen 34:22

  Only herein 2063 will the men 582 consent 225 unto us for to dwell 3427 with us, to be one 259 people 5971 , if every male 2145 among us be circumcised 4135 , as they [are] circumcised 4135 .

  Reniaa said:

  john 8:54 is Jesus declaring he is the promised messiah nothing to do with the jews rejecting him as God.

  My reply: Again, he related how his Father honors him, the man Jesus who came down to earth. Certainly not a denial of his deity. He emptied himself to become one of us.

  Reniaa said:

  Your explanation of 1 cor 15 27 shows your cognitive disonance reading the person father into the word God when it says 'it does not include God' to equate it with your theology. Yet the context keeps it to meaning completely God as God only, as the same scripture shows Jesus will subject himself to God.

  My reply:

  Absolutely no cognitive dissonance on 1 Cor 15:27. It makes perfect sense to me. It can not make perfect sense to you when you read it solely to make it fit the WT theology you must uphold.

  Reniaa said:

  Adam and eve are a race of humans you cannot use them as comparative to Jesus, father and spirit it would make them a race of gods thus polytheistic.

  My reply:

  Analogies generally break down when trying to illustrate the nature of God. no surprise there. But the concept is valid, 2 person, one entity.

  Reniaa said:

  the word 'honour' is not the word 'worship' and if john wanted us to worship Jesus he would have said it. And JEsus is very specific about worshiping the father why wouldn't he mention himself and the spirit in this scripture?

  John 4:23-24 (New International Version)

  23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  Reniaa

  My reply: Look thruout the Gospels. There are countless occasions where Jesus accepted worship. We worship the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit, by worshipping his Son, who is God in the flesh.
• 

  Raphael

  One either accepts the doctrine of the Trinity or there can be no salvation , for those who cannot and will not believe - there is only one fate - eternal torment in the lake of fire ...
• 

  PSacramento

  Raphael,

  Where in the Bible does it say that?
• 

  reniaa

  hi isaac

  I have the shema it states clearly that my God YHWH is one God where is your scripture that says God is 3? thats right it doesn't exist. And thats simply why we shouldn't believe in the trinity it isn't biblical as a doctrine.

  Psacramento please don't start buying into trinity lies you will find yourself having to avoid most of the hebrew scriptures in an attempt to rationionalise the doctrines that are not supported by trinitarian scriptures. like no awareness after death etc.

  Reniaa
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Hi Reniaa

  What came down from heaven?

  Deputy Dog