the study aid "Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament"

by quietlyleaving 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  ql,

  I was not questioning the meaning of ktisis or its rendering as "creation" where it does occur, but pointing out that neither the word nor the concept belongs to the context of the Johannine Prologue. Instead the text describes a subtle relationship between being (eimi, v. 1-2,4) and becoming, or coming to be (ginomai, v. 3). If we call that "creation" we are not reading, we are substituting another text to the text. "John" doesn't describe God or the Word creating, making or doing anything as active subjects, but "all things" becoming from what what was "in the beginning" -- derivation and difference, being inasmuch as it is in him, non-being inasmuch as it is out of him -- light shining in darkness. A completely different tune if we do listen.

  Koinè Greek is along the way from classical to modern Greek so to say, but much closer to the former than to the latter.

  Pistoff,

  I suppose much depends whether you like the "Bible" texts (some of them, at least!) or you don't to begin with. If you do, criticism will only enhance your interest in them, helping you understand and appreciate their differences and nuances better; if you don't, it may relieve you from a chore that you don't have to do after all (for saving your soul, for instance). Although sometimes people who didn't like the Bible as "the authoritative and inerrant Word of God" come to enjoy it from a "simply human," historical and literary perspective.
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  Pistoff

  My take is this:

  For 30 years I took the bible as literal history, in the modern sense of the word, ignorant of the concept that one views Jesus through eyes of faith while realizing that the stories about him cannot be verified.

  In short, if the stories are made up or embellished, of what value are they? Of what value is Jesus if he did not think he was the son of god, as most modern scholars, including scholars who consider themselves christian, will state. (This is not negative criticism, but intended for discussion; I value what Jesus is credited with saying, it is unique and revolutionary).

  What we are looking at may be koine greek, but likely those who recorded or redacted were educated class, not common. Literacy was uncommon in Jesus day.

  So we have the word of 2nd century authors who are relating stories passed down to them by those who were not there; I can't see the merit of parsing the word meanings when the words are far removed from the events and the people who were there.
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  Narkissos

  Pistoff,

  (Briefly, not to derail this thread further off topic.)

  You seem to assume that the value of a (narrative) text (say, the Gospels) rests in its historical accuracy: if it doesn't exactly report events that really happened as they really happened, it's worthless.

  By such standards, not only most of, but ALL that which we call literature is worthless, because you do not acknowledge such thing as literary (or religious, philosophical, moral, mystagogical, etc.) value. Don Quijote is worthless because it didn't really happen; so is The Lord of the Rings. Before you burn down whole libraries (as Don Quijote had his burnt, btw, because his neighbours figured his chivalry books had made him crazy) you may come to the realisation that you are applying the wrong value standards. Throwing away the oysters' pearls because you cannot eat them, as it were.

  Which, oddly enough, you are not doing when you write : "I value what Jesus is credited with saying, it is unique and revolutionary". Maybe it's not that unique or revolutionary, but the point is: You do not value it any less if he did not say it...

  Only it happens to have been written in 1st-2nd century AD Greek, just as Don Quijote in 17th-century Spanish, or The Lord of the Rings in 20th-century English.

  On another point, you seem to misunderstand what "koinè" means; "common" indeed, but not as a language level (as "popular" or "colloquial" or "elevated" or "didactic") but as a (post-classical and international) stage in the evolution of Greek language. Both highly educated and uneducated people would speak koinè Greek, as earlier Attic; so modern English can be spoken at many levels, just like Old English could.
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  quietlyleaving

  narkissos

  I was not questioning the meaning of ktisis or its rendering as "creation" where it does occur, but pointing out that neither the word nor the concept belongs to the context of the Johannine Prologue.

  I didn't think that ktisis occurred in John and I guess I ought to have chosen a greek word from John and preferable from the passage in question to illustrate my point but for some reason I decided to take an excursion to romans 8:22 and look at the word creation and hence to its greek original in a place where it did occur.

  narkissos writes: Instead the text describes a subtle relationship between being (eimi, v. 1-2,4) and becoming, or coming to be (ginomai, v. 3). If we call that "creation" we are not reading, we are substituting another text to the text. "John" doesn't describe God or the Word creating, making or doing anything as active subjects, but "all things" becoming from what what was "in the beginning" -- derivation and difference, being inasmuch as it is in him, non-being inasmuch as it is out of him -- light shining in darkness. A completely different tune if we do listen.

  Now that is an awesome thought and believe me I was heading in that direction but without the benefit of properly understanding the greek words eimi and ginomai.

  I understood the Lingusitic use of the word creation as in the sene of an event which would include impersonal and subjectless processes intersecting and being made actual in "him" and also passing through "him" in continuous becoming. (But I have to admit your rendition sounds more poetic and full of feeling)