by carla 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
As I think about all the talk about the "Trinity", It's probably the last thing I talk to JWs about. Not because my beliefs aren't biblical, but it's the area JWs have been lied to the most, and they come looking to pick a fight about it. It's the old answering a fool and his folly thing.
Pro 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him. 5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That he not be wise in his own eyes.
hi jon dough
You know the bible is the only way to reach a true JW it's what convinced us in the first place. there are some beautiful scriptures in the bible.
1 YHWH says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of YHWH,
in the majesty of the name of YHWH his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
Reniaa
Dear Pastor
You may want to ask JWs "what came down from heaven?" in John 6, like verses 41,51. They will not have much of an answer. They want to say nothing came down but, Jesus said something did. Him.
I thank most of you for your responses! Rennia, I don't mean to be rude but I live with a jw remember? I know the party line, in fact I know the party line better than my jw and most jw's who do not know their own literature from one day to the next or their history. Jw's are not followers or even witnesses for God they are witnesses for the watchtower and follow mere men in NY. If you were not a born in you were not converted by the bible you were converted using wt literature and merely checked to see if a certain scripture was in fact in there where they claimed it was and misapplied in the manner the gb requires today, subject to change at a moments notice. I know this because I saw it in action. The wt clearly discourages independent bible reading and thinking. There are numerous quotes against 'independent thinking' but I think the following quote is quite telling:
WT Aug 15,1981 p28-29 "They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago."
As far as what I meant by 'reach' I guess I mean reach in any and all of the ways you suggested and hopefully it would entail bringing the watchtower follower to Christ. That is the difference between a jw and a Christian, a Christian's hope is for the person to follow Christ regardless of which church they may or may not join, and the jw's hope is for the person to follow the wt. I had a discussion with a number of ministers who believe all you need to know is the bible, however if anyone has ever had more than a 5 minute conversation with a watchtowerite you know full well how many other things are involved and how many different tangents they will go off on. Sadly the watchtowerites lack of education and freedom of education (re: bible, language, history, etc.) they quickly dismiss what all others have to say. Or it simply turns into scripture volleyball.
Personally I don't believe I can reach my jw until he cares more about God and truth than he does about the org. Because of man made rules he is not even allowed to discuss God or the Bible with me unless I am willing to blindly accept all the wt has to say. How different from the early Christians who did have lively debates.
hi jon dough
You know the bible is the only way to reach a true JW it's what convinced us in the first place. there are some beautiful scriptures in the bible......Reniaa
Thats your 4th post on this thread and you still have not addressed the Topic of the Thread..
....................OUTLAW
You have to speak to someone in the language they understand or you can run
into a "Who's on first?" routine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_on_First%3F
A brief but representative list for the JWs leaders' Bible vocabulary in-
cludes:
"One," used about God, doesn't mean "one"-- it means He can only has the
mental complexity to know people's thoughts and hearts as good as one of us
could, provided we could read minds, too, because more than that is too
complicated for people to understand. Leaving them puzzled about how to read
minds is acceptable so they don't get too sure of themselves. The practice of
waiting in line to take turns to pray to God was given up by Russell after he
had more than a roomful of puzzled followers, but the difficulty remained with
him to set dates for predictions with any numbers bigger than one.
God said no one was with Him in Creation in Isaiah in the sense of it being
very important for us to know one was with him and took part in it. Mainstream
Christians are advised to study the understand the meaning of "one" here, too.
People understood wisdom in the intertestament wisdom literature as being
God's wisdom personified and sent to people in a sense that confused people
beyond reconciliation, so they decided it meant archangel Michael was sent to
people with a message from God--you just weren't supposed to call Michael
"Michael" in case that's wrong.
This persisted when you could call the Father YHWH but you weren't supposed to
call Jesus "archangel Michael," either, which really miffed Stephen when people
gathered around with rocks.
Jesus was the "only" Son, "the" Son, not in the sense of the mainstream view
that there was only one Son that was like that (a conventional "one"), but in
the sense that only one of the archangels, Michael, believed in at the time was
one. The others were designated with fractions on their team shirts so people
could keep track of who they were rooting for. Again, mainstream Christians say
"It's a mystery" about it mainly because they know it annoys the JW leaders'
followers even if the mainstream Christians perfectly well understand fractions.
Thomas said the Shema to Jesus when he lost his doubt about who Jesus was
because it was just something he said to the Father whenever he got excited.
Obviously, this could lead to other humorous, if dangerous, problems of
identification.
Both the mental complexity shown in God knowing everyone's thoughts and hearts
and being able to create an angel from nothing but His own power, the abilities
of God used by the mainstream and JWs leaders idea of Jesus, are in the Bible
and beyond our ability to fully understand in the sense of the former one not
being in the Bible because it's beyond our ability to understand. Most Chris-
tians don't understand this.
Paul meant he didn't have a ban of a food per se in the sense of him having
had one--one even more important than before.
Various early Christians in later related history had the basic mainstream
view of Jesus in the sense of them having had the basic JWs leaders' stance.
If you want to be confused, try to understand why they debated Arians who had
the same outlook.
Russell meant wars, famines, etc., aren't an omen about Jesus' return in the
sense of them being one if a big war starts.
You're supposed to regard human government as though the higher authorites of
Rom.13 are the Father and Son even if you call the higher authorities human
government. It's best to avoid civil service jobs till we figure this out.
the minister likely has preconceptions about what the Bible teaches that will get in the way, such as various unscriptural notions, perhaps about the soul, about the condition of the dead, about the nature of God (Reniaa mentioned this), as well as various other doctrines. Traditions not found in the Bible also prevent a minister from reaching the intended audience, as will any (perceived) lack of respect (which both Reniaa and Isaac have referred to).
Spike, your a funny guy.
Sorry for the long posts, but this is kind of fun once you get the hang of it:
The holy spirit is described with a word that can mean something personal, and
personal terms, in the sense of the holy spirit being impersonal, which may be
retribution because the holy spirit wanted a higher billing.
The JWs leaders describe koshering--trying to remove all the blood from meat
before eating the meat--as a fanatical interpretation because you're supposed to
not eat blood in the sense of not eating about half of it. This is based on
seeing the meat as having "one" unit of blood (see above). There would be more
JWs leaders followers to say so but some of them died in hospitals.
The council of Acts 15 didn't write down this difference from the Jewish
koshering idea of the time because it's hard to get Jews to join the Jehovah's
Witnesses so they don't count. The various "because of the Jews" ideas used by
Luke and Paul in the context of the rules of Acts 15 aren't brought up because
the JWs leaders only like people to do things because of them and the Jews won't
do some of them. It's spiteful, and Luke and Paul are considered to be disap-
pointing in not having been made of sterner stuff.
Rutherford threatened Hitler that he'd send unarmed JWs into German streets
with tracts very critical of Hitler, and advised followers to become martyrs, in
the sense of sensibly protecting them. You should hear what he really wanted to
do to them for not bringing in better sales in Nazi Germany--ouch.
"Idolatry" means worshipping whatever other than God, whatever is most impor-
tant to someone who doesn't believe in God, and about whatever other damn
popular trend in behavior the JWs leaders feel like calling idolatry. So there,
pagan filth.
Shunning should only be used for making a persistent thing of a serious sin,
like lying, which is why JWs leaders like Rutherford never went door to door.
"Show me your faith by your works" was never meant in the sense of "show me
yours and I'll show you mine"--just "show me the ones I tell you to and shut
up," which was considered to have precedent in the way Russell and Rutherford
conducted their marital relationships.
"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor
take away from it," Deut. 12:32, is meant in the sense of "one" (see above)
collection of holy writings.
Spike
the minister likely has preconceptions about what the Bible teaches that will get in the way, such as various unscriptural notions, perhaps about the soul, about the condition of the dead, about the nature of God
Or what year the world will come to an end. Why no vaccinations. If the sodomites will be resurrected. and so on.
But I'll bet he can scripturaly tell you what came down from heaven.
