just a few questions I don't want to ask directly hell

by Janey214 92 Replies latest jw friends

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Now forgive me again please, but they are not prophecies in my opinion. Prophecies to me are about direct communication from the almighty to a man or men on the earth revealing His will. Simply applying some random method of study or maths to written words or even to non-christian structures, well that's not prophecy.

    The point i am making is that they claim to be prophets, you've asked for some quotes as to whether they claim this, so i have provided them. If they claim to be prophets and they claim to make prophecies which do not get fulfilled then surely you have to ask yourself whether they are God's chosen people.

    Notice in Deuteronomy the distinction between prophets and those who foretell dreams, either way if there sign or wonder does not take place notice what it tells you. And certainly there have been many signs from the JW's that haven't taken place and all this under their claim that they are prophets.

    "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).

    "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. . . . For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect –- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" (Matthew 24:10-13;24 NIV).

    "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them –- bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV).

    History has shown that JW's have set dates that they claim to have prophesied. Whether or not you belive they prophesied is down to your interpretation of the word prophecy, but the point is they claim to prophesy. On the basis of the above scriptures, along with their WT articles i have quoted you it is up to you to decide whether or not they are God's chosen people, all i have shown you is scripture and their own quotes.

    I wish you well in your journey.

    Paul

  • yknot
    yknot

    Arrggg posting limitations!......(but alas they have good reason to have them initially)

    So you are a "study", may I inquire the page you are currently at in the Bible Teach book?

    As I am sure many posters have brought out CT Russell is the founder of the "Bible Students" movement which was later hijacked by Joseph Rutherford and re-dubbed and totally altered in theology (except trinity, immortality of soul, and hellfire) to become the JWs. Many Bible Students still remain throughout the world (poster RR is a good source for Bible Student information. Here is the link to his theocratic library http://205.134.162.24/downloads/)

    There is much good among the R&F JWs (I know because I am still active).....but the policies, interpretations and demanded allegiance to the Organization in all circumstance no matter what.....do go askew of Jesus' teachings in many areas. Much of the legalism within the WTS is more comparable to the Pharisees then Apostles too.

    But of course none of that really matters in the Watchtower world because Jesus is not your or my mediator, rather it is the WTS that is our mediator and only chance at salvation. The New Testament really was just written for the Anointed. Those of the remaining remnant (anointed) also must show blind allegiance to it's governing body/organization, albeit none of the non-GB anointed are part of electing new GBs.

    So if you believe your salvation is only possible by following the dictates of 9 men in NY (soon to add 2 more, then a 3rd-rumored) who by their own admission are 'imperfect', "not-inspired" and have a history of changing their stances when time marches on or money becomes an issue......... then I expect to see you at next season's CAs, SPADs, and DC! (Please reference the 'Grooming Guide' posted on your local Kingdom Hall backboard)

    For additional reading here is a link to the 'Pay Attention to Yourselves and All the Flock" Elder Manual that only Elders are allowed to read (not- anti just a publication that no woman is 'privileged to possess' within the congregation.

    http://www.4shared.com/file/62487460/676fa4ef/1991-Pay-Attention-Elders-Manual_with_NOTES.html

    Here is the 'Organized to Do Jehovah's Will" baptismal prep book (100+ questions to answer before being 'approved' for baptized- totally unlike Jesus & apostles). Usually this book is offered half way through the Bible Teach book if the 'study' shows signs of willingness to be dunked into the corporation.

    http://www.4shared.com/file/62479717/d683f930/2005_ODBook.html

    Here is the Branch Organizational manual on how to the WTS is currently organized to run worldwide

    http://www.4shared.com/file/62480635/f42148f2/2003_branch_organization_manual_bo-e.html

    Here is a collection of "Body of Elder Letters", correspondence of guidelines and adjustments from NY to the rest of the world!

    http://www.4shared.com/file/62500111/3f196088/BOE__1981-2006.html

    Here is a PDF of the Reasoning Book by the WTS (used in Field Service and mid-week meeting- kudos to poster Atlantis for uploading yesterday)

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/ph5ian

    Above all this please check back to JWN in October for notes of the "Annual Meeting" to see if any of the above has become irrelevent!

    Then I urge you to consider reading CoC.....as part of your 'investigation' into the JWs along with the 1917 1st edition of "The Finished Mystery"

  • yknot
    yknot

    I also wanted to provide some additional links you might find of interest....

    A few are from Piratebay (you will need programs like Utorrent, Alzip or WinRar to access files) while others are from others.

    Cnet has these program to download for free and without viruses

    Utorrent http://www.utorrent.com/

    Alzip http://download.cnet.com/ALZip/3000-2250_4-10326198.html?tag=mncol

    WinRar http://download.cnet.com/WinRAR-32-bit/3000-2250_4-10007677.html?tag=mncol

    WT CD-2008

    http://www.box.net/shared/y1pzaaqstc (you will need Alzip or Winrar)

    or Piratebay has it too.... http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4760337/Watchtower_Library_2008__iso

    Older publications

    Magazines (ZWTs/WTs) 1879-1949 http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3539484/Watchtower_Bible_and_Tract_Society_-_Jehovah_s_Witnesses_-_Wa

    Magazines (older versions of the Awake!) http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4215561/Watchtower_periodic_(Golden_Age__Consolation__Kingdom_News)

    books 1870-1959 http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4214005/Watchtower_Pubs_1870-1960

    Don't forget to check www.achive.org for other WTS material too!

    Additionally not in any way "ANTI" and now offered freely is Barbara Anderson's collection of court cases that reveal the WTS's stance on Sexual Abuse.

    http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/secrets.html

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    janey, sorry since I found out about the Lie in the WT, i have been getting rust in scripture...... but if you get yourself a copy of the Revelation, it's grand climax book published by the WT, you will see how every prophecy in revelation has many

    fullfillments, and you can bet your arms that the WT fullfills them!

    in that book you will see how scripture "a" is interpreted by WT as "symbolic" and scripture "b" is literal, etc....

    P.S. you're probably not gonna get reniaa to answer hard questions without her twisting things in another direction

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Janey214 (Post 7)

    Black Sheep posted a copy of an article from an early Watchtower. From this and what I know so far about CT Russell and the way it all started, I would think that the WTS has it's origins in sincere Christian thought. It is very much my belief the the churches I see around me do not adhere to Bible truths and this worries me immensely just from reading the Bible. This study with the witnesses is just one aspect of me 'testing my faith' as it were. :-)

    Spike Tassel (Post 1977)

    Yes, I really like your phrase sincere Christian thought. I see that to be true of the group connected with the Zion's Watch Tower magazine and its later names.

    Janey214 (Post 7)

    I have to ask this question, why do spiritual gifts 'seem to have ended with the apostles'. Many many many churches would disagree with you on this point! You say they 'seem' to have ended, does the WTs have a clear revelation/prophecy/mandate to state that they have ended? I apologise but you seem to be ignoring the next two verses of 1 Corinthians 13:

    8 Charity never afaileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Spike Tassel (Post 1977)

    The point of this scripture is that prophecies are fulfilled, languages come and go, and how we understand Truth changes as knowledge is uncovered and wisdom is applied to the range of both personal and societal issues.

    The matter of spiritual gifts (miracles) since Jesus coming to earth as a human seems to not be possible apart from apostles (leaders in the New Covenant arrangement), Jesus being chief. Before Jesus' time as a human, these miracles were conferred upon such men as Moses and Elijah, leaders (prophets) of Jehovah's Old Covenant people.

    Those connected to the Great Apostasy are cut off from both spiritual gifts (miracles) from Jehovah, and spiritual understanding from Jehovah as well. All these ones have access to its the "false light" from Satan & co.

    Spiritual perfection (paradise) has apparently already begun, though it is progressive; physical perfection (paradise) is understood to begin its progression starting with Armageddon and last until Satan & co. return for the Last Temptation (at the end of the Millenium). Once Satan & co. are destroyed once and for all, perfection (as we use the term in English) on earth will begin in earnest. This time may be called the "real life" (1 Timothy 6:19), though its initial fulfillment is the heavenly resurrection of Jesus and his co-rulers (the 144,000).

    Janey214 (Post 7)

    Onthewayout - don't get me started on arguments about the canon of scripture! This is one thing that seems to have stumped my visiting witnesses. They were very clear and produced various printouts that the reason they only accept the current canon is because they only accept books into the Bible that are in the Bible! It was a chicken and egg situation. Don't tell me that every book in the canon references another book in the canon. I then asked them the question about these books:

    Book of Enoch – Jude 1:14

    Book of Jasher – Joshua 10:10

    Book of the Acts of Solomon – 1 Kings 11:41

    Book of the Covenant – Exodus 24:7

    Book of the Wars of the Lord – Numbers 21:14

    Book of Samuel the Seer – 1 Chronicles 29:29

    Book of Nathan the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 9:29

    Book of Shemaiah the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 12:15

    Third Epistle to the Corinthians – 1 Corinthians 5:9

    Epistle from Laodicea – Colossians 4:16

    Now I know that certain of these so called apocrypha have been recorded in part in recent decades in things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi codices. I don't believe for one second that God has protected any canon from the work of man at all. If He had then there would be ONE canon, ONE Bible. Everyone I speak with seems to discount the fact that Bible means library. I don't just mean JWs, I mean everyone who seems to have an opinion about the idea of a closed canon. From all my research and understanding I don't believe it's possible that the canon is closed. I don't see any scriptural evidence to suggest that, and if it truly was then why have we been hung out to dry? :-S

    Spike Tassel (Post 1977)

    The issue of canon is discussed in the Appendix called The Bible and Its Canon in the WT textbook entitled "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (which is used the the Theocratic Ministry School, one of JWs' 5 weekly meetings).

    Also, there is a 4-page CANON article in JWs' 2-volume Insight on the Scriptures. Of particular interest is its 2nd introductory paragraph, which is recorded as follows:—

    The mere writing of a religious book, its preservation for hundreds of years, and its esteem by millions do not prove it is of divine origin or canonical. It must ber credentials of Divine Authorship demonstrating that it was inspired by God. The apostle Peter states: "Prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:21) An examination of the Bible canon shows that its contents measure up to this criterion in every respect.

    You mention "Book of Samuel the Seer – 1 Chronicles 29:29" and "Book of Nathan the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 9:29". Samuel and Nathan and Gad are the 3 known contributors to I and II Samuel, so 1 Chronicles 29:29 undoubtedly refers to I and II Samuel. Possibly some of the other references in your list also reference scriptures which are now known by another name. As to "Epistle from Laodicea – Colossians 4:16", it would appear that, indeed, this Epistle is not currently part of the Bible Canon.

    Since the revelation speaks of further Scrolls being opened, this would suggest that, indeed, the Bible Canon is not yet closed.

    Janey214 (Post 7)

    If the soul is not immortal what exactly did Jesus do when we are told he went to teach the spirits in prison?

    Spike Tassel (Post 1977)

    At the present time, I'll deal with just the distinction between "soul" and "spirit", using the official NWT Reference Bible (with footnotes and appendices).

    JWs understand that the body with the spirit of life activating it causes it to become a soul. This is taken from Genesis 2:7 and Ezekiel 18:4, 20. The point in Genesis is that that the man came to be a living soul [breathing creature], rather than the man having a soul. (The difference is comparable to becoming a father, versus having a father.) The point in Ezekiel is that the soul is not immortal, since "the soul that is sinning—it itself will die". Here, again, the "soul" is referring to the "living person".

    Appendix 4A "Soul"— A Living Creature, Human or Animal; Life as an Intelligent Person; Other Uses — Hebrew, NPhSh (ne´phesh); Greek, ψυχη (psy·khe´); Latin, a´ni·ma. includes the following subheadings (each category with an apparently complete list of scriptures for each):—

    • Animals are souls

    • A living person or individual is a soul

    • The creature soul is mortal, destructible

    • Life as an intelligent person

    • Soul deliverd from Sheol or Hades ("hell")

    • Dead soul, or corpse

    • Soul distinguished from spirit (Philippians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12)

    • God has soul

  • treadnh2o
    treadnh2o

    Wow, Great thread! I'm sorry I got here so late.

    I can't help but realize when the "lights went on" for me concerning the JW religion.

    I was researching a public talk concerning prophecy very thoroughly, using secular references. It was then I concluded there was some holes in their beliefs I was no longer willing to accept. What I find so telling are the amount of posters who had similar conclusions after a deep study of the scriptures, whether it be for Gilead, Pioneer School, MS School or personal study, which caused them to alter their views of this religion.

    Keeping with the point of this thread, it is remarkable, though unsurprising, that an average JW is ill equiped for such a disussion with a "bible study". The reality is that if more publishers could answer these questions, serious damage could be done to their faith.

    This being said, If Janey conitinues with this line of questioning, not that it is inappropriate, I can assure you that there will be "red flags" raised concerning where she is getting her information and who she has been communicating with. It is a little disturbing because she is asking questions that should be asked by any JW who is serious about their studies.

    I will abstain from inserting any wise a** coments or negative opinions because I am very much enjoying the analytical thinking some have displayed on this thread and hope that common sense will prevail for certain ones.

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Janey...welcome!

    There have been numerous excellent postings of information on the history and doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. The one thing that really helped me to critically think on and examine the JW teachings had to do with the Bible itself. Most Christian denominations believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and say that it is the SOLE authority from God, inspired by him and nothing should be added or taken away from it...nothing else should be required to find answers about what God's purpose is for man.

    Starting with Russell, the JW organization has taught that the Bible alone could not bring someone into a true understanding of God's purposes and requirements. Believers needed the interpretation of the Bible by the "Faithful and Discreet Slave". Russell said that if a person would only read the Bible, minus his commentaries and interpretations, they would be back in the same "spiritual darkness" as the rest of Christendom within a year's time. That philosophy has continued to this day, and the JW organization is adamant about discouraging "independent study".

    I would ask your study conductor if the Bible is the ONLY authority you need to come into a relationship with God or if you need to also follow what the Faithful and Discreet Slave "feeds" you as additional "truth" that is given them as God's sole channel on earth...the answer might be quite illuminating.

    TYA

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    To me the question of whether it is by the Bible only, or whether it is by the Bible with aids, clouds the real issue: sane, upbuilding, sound moral association and discussion. Sincere Christian thought.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Besty's Post 2170 on http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/180775/1/Besty-Unplugged-My-Life-Story-Part-VI contains an excellent, thoughtful answer to many common objections regarding JWs' take on the Bible. It's the letter Besty got from his brother.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Spike

    Black Sheep posted a copy of an article from an early Watchtower. From this and what I know so far about CT Russell and the way it all started, I would think that the WTS has it's origins in sincere Christian thought.

    Ummmm, does this sound like sincere Christian thought Spike????? A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.

    Read the scan again Spike. There is more. Concentrate. Read it within the constraints of good English grammar. Understand it.

    Was he really portraying truth in a way that would have the support of a sincere Christian?

    Cheers

    Chris

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