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Chalam

I'm still looking for the words "Jesus could come at any moment."

How abut "in a flash"?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Or "like a thief in the night"?

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

All the best,

Stephen

Deputy Dog

Chalam

How abut "in a flash"?

I'm sure WHEN it happens it will happen quickly. That doesn't discount the signs in Matt 24

Or "like a thief in the night"?

1Th 5:1

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

Are you "of night" or "of darkness" Chalam? Are you ignoring Matt 24:15, 29, 30 Mark 13:14, 24, 25 Luke 21:25? Look at the context. Who is saying "Peace and safety!"? Do you fear "sudden destruction"?

I'm still looking for the words "Jesus could come at any moment."

Chalam

Hi DD,

I agree with your observations. As I mentioned, I am on the fence for a pre or post trib rapture, I see verses both ways.

So what about yourself?

1. Do you subscribe to the doctrine of "the rapture"?

2. If so do you believe in a pre tri, mid trib or post tribulation rapture?

3. One of the other views?

All the best,

Stephen

Deputy Dog

Chalam

Historic premillennialism works best for me.

From: http://www.theopedia.com/Premillennialism

Historic premillennialism is so called because it is the classic form which may be found in writings of some of the early church fathers (mentioned above), although in an undeveloped form.

I can also understand why some choose Amillennialism.

Pre, mid, and post trib, start with a faulty understanding of God's wrath in scripture.

PSacramento

Interesting discussion, thanks for the view guys.

I doubt I will waste time on the actuall series, but this tribulation ( pre and so forth) discussion is very interesting.

Deputy Dog

PS

Just don't confuse Premillenialism, Amillenialism, and Postmillenialism with

Pre-tribulationalism, mid-tribulationalism, and post-tribulationalism which are refinements of Premillenial dispensationalism.

PSacramento

DD,

LOL !
I will try not to !!

I tend to fall back on Jesus's words that he will come like a thief in the night and that no one knows the time, it gives me less of a headache !

cameo-d

Chalam,

The rapture doctrine is not in the bible. That should be your first clue.

However, let's look at how some of the Bible verses have been used to contrive this theory.

Luke 17 describes the sudden dissapearance of people. Everyone is familiar with the paraphrases "two in the field...one will be taken and one left behind" "two will be in the bed...one will be taken..." "two at the mill, one will be taken and one left behind."

The disciples ask, "where will they be taken?"

The answer is in Luke 17:37:

37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, (A) "Where the corpse [a] is, there the vultures [b] will gather."

These people are being taken to their death.

Let's examine the word "rapture".

The root word of "rapture" is rape.

The first known theological use of the word "rapture" in print occurs with the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909. [ 21 ]

rapture rapt). Originally of women and cognate with rape (v.). Sense of "spiritual ecstasy" first recorded 1629.

1600, "act of carrying off," from M.Fr. rapture, from M.L. raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from L. raptus "a carrying off" (see

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=rapture

This denotes that rapture would be a (forced) seizure against a person's will.

The circumstances portrayed in Luke shows that it will be unexpected and selective.

Let's examine one more aspect here. Who are these vultures? In some translations the word "eagle" is used. Both eagle and vultures are predatory birds.

Isaiah 34:15 sheds some light on the identity of the vultures.

There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

What does this great owl represent? Have you not seen this "great owl" in ancient Babylonian artwork? Have you not seen the continuity of this image in our contemporary system? Think Bohemian Grove? Molech? The vultures are those under the command of the great owl. They are in her nest.

What do we know about the owl? The owl is the sharpest of the predatory birds. Certain wingfeathers of the owl have a shredded characteristic which makes the bird silent in it's flight. You do not hear it coming. The owl is a stealth bird of prey.

The people you suppose to be raptured are actually being grabbed and taken to their deaths. Specific people will be targeted. Do you have any idea who they might be and why they would be targeted?

What happens when people start to realize its not the obediant church members who are "disappearing"?

Deputy Dog

Cameo-d

Don't get to carried away with the word "rapture". I'm sure Chalam is refering the the " harpazo¯" G726 in 1thess 4:17

snowbird

http://www.nazarene-friends.org/articles/Our%20Lord%20Taught%20the%20Rapture.htm

At the above link, Mark Heber Miller, a former JW, does a pretty ding dang dong job of explaining the Rapture.

Sylvia

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