jonathan
Just trying to help.
S
Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?
by Witness 007 148 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
Think. People act out their concepts and philosophies. A God who is conceived as cruel gives justification to the people who believe that and they take license to do cruel things themselves.
The result has been millions and millions of Trinitarian Christians butchered each other over the centuries and they butchered non believers by the millions as well.
'Love me or I will torture you for all eternity' that's the Trinity God.
People don't kill and maim because Jesus revealed the triune nature of God to mankind. I don't see how you can make that connection. It is the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is Jehovah who happens to have a triune nature. The Bible is very clear about that. It is also clear that Jesus was, and is, God. You are drawing these incredibly broad strokes and grand generalizations about Trinitarians. After all, there are over 2 billion Christians in the world and you are treating all of them the same, ascribing guilt by association. You're equating Mother Theresa with a Nazi butcher. As to the latter, the Almighty will deal with them in due time. You are also misinformed about some basic Christian tenents, for instance, believing all Christians condone the world's butchery. That is ridiculous. And now you are throwing hell and eternal damnation into the mix. What does that have to do with the doctrine of the Trinity?
The Trinitarian God, Jehovah, is not conceived. Not an invention. I understand your frustration with people who denegrate the Bible and make a mockery of Bible principles, but remember Jesus said many who claim to be Christians will not make the cut. But that has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither does the Trinity doctrine have anything directly to do with "being tortured for all eternity."
I'm assuming you are a JW. If so, I strongly suggest you take a closer look at yourself and what they teach before you try to remove the rafter out of our eyes. If you are serious about learning the truth, and I have found few JWs who are, then take a close look at the Society's false teachings. And they are false, wrong about just about everything they teach. And that includes what they tell you the Trinity doctrine means.
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BurnTheShips
'Love me or I will torture you for all eternity' that's the Trinity God.
That is your conception of that God.
BTS
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jonathan dough
I called up the archdioses here in Toronto
I believe the archdioses needs to take a closer look at his own catechism because his views seem to be at odds with what I provided above. But that is not the first time a member of the catholic clergy has been at odds with the Vatican. Did you provide him with that information I provided? Did you ask him if he disagreed with that? Why don't you email him back and forward that to him and see if that is wrong. To be honest with you, I've found many pastors and priests who don't have a clue about how to preach the Trinity let alone how to explain it or what it means. I don't see how anybody in their right mind can read the above information and claim that one can gain salvation through the Catholic church and not believe in the Trinity. It is impossible. Maybe your questions to him should have been worded differently. But thumbs up on taking the initiative.
But remember one important fact. The Trinity does not teach that Jesus the man of the God-man equation, the created humanity, is the Father Almighty. Don't fall into that JW trap.
I asked what role the trinity plays in salvation and he said, "None really,
If he actually said that, it is one of the most ridiculous statements uttered. He doesn't know what he is talking about. Take a look at the Catechism again.
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jonathan dough
I don't see how any Catholic can be catholic and not believe in the Trinity. That is not possible. I'll repeat the cathechism here that I quoted above.
"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained," (Catechism, 234).
"Before receiving the [baptismal] sacrament, [Christians] respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."(Catechism, 69). The Trinity is at the very root of the Church's living faith..." (Ibid, 74).
"The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures in to the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity." But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the most Holy Trinity," (Ibid., 77, 78). "By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity..." (Ibid., 79). "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity," (Ibid.).
So as you can see, the Catholic church's belief in the Trinity is fundamental and essential to salvation. It defines God's work of salvation, His economic mission with respect to redemption. -
jonathan dough
jonathan
Just trying to help.
S
Much appreciated. But you need to change your name. You don't strike me as a Satanus.
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PSacramento
I have an email in to the provinvial bible college for them to give me a call or reply to my email about what is taught in regards to the Trinity in bible college, I'll let you know what they say too.
As it stands, what thsi gentlemen told me is what I have been told before, including by the RCC who confirmed me 11 years ago, I was told the samething (basically) during the "alpha course" - That the Trinity, though part of RCC doctrine and belief in it is "mandatory" for being a RCC, it is NOT a basis for Salvation, no where in the bible is it stated that our salavation is based on believing that God is a Triune God.
Certainly one can CHOOSE to believe that, but you won't find it stated plainly.
It is an interpretive doctrine.
JD, I do not think that the trinity states that Jesus is God the Father, I know that, thatis why I don't have any issues with the Trinity at all.
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BurnTheShips
The Catholic Church does not accept the baptism of another denomination as valid unless it is Trinitarian: in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And not just the formula, but the intention. My JW "baptism", for example, was not valid. It was not a Christian baptism.
JD, I do not think that the trinity states that Jesus is God the Father, I know that, thatis why I don't have any issues with the Trinity at all.
This is the pertinent part of Athanasian Creed which formulates the Trinity (it is lengthy due to its exhaustiveness):
WHOSOEVER will be saved : before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholick Faith.
Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled : without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholick Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the Persons : nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son : and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one : the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son : and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate : and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible : and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal : and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals : but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated : but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty : and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties : but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God : and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods : but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord : and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords : but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord;
So are we forbidden by the Catholick Religion : to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none : neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone : not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son : neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons : one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other : none is greater, or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together : and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid : the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved : must think thus of the Trinity.BTS
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PSacramento
If you go over to the vatican website www.vatican.va and do a search on "salvation" you will find many articles on salvation, all of them basically say the samething to one extent or another - salvation comes thorough belief in Jesus Christ. one article called "All salvation comes through jesus Christ" is a nice one.
I can't cut and paste so...sorry :(
BTS:
Thanks for that info, greatly appreciate it.
That creed used to confuse me, as it still does many Christians ( That's why the trinity is easy pickings for JW's at the door), but funny thing is, when I stopped believing in it and that i t was a "great mystery", the more I was able to understand it !
Though I still have issues with that whole "mother of God" title given to Mary
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jonathan dough
Who in the theological department did you talk to? A graduate student? Priest? Phd candidate? Just curious.
On a different topic, are you saying that you do not believe in the hypostatic union? That Jesus was God-man? That he was nothing more than mere man as the JWs teach?
We're also forgetting that certain protestant denominations believe it is needed for Salvation.