Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start? (page 5)

yknot

Jonathan,

You are making things way too personal in your responses and posts.

This is not a brawl.

If you are disappointed that the WTS does accept the divinity of Christ I am sorry. There are lots of mis-understanding by non-JWs regarding the beliefs and Organization. Which many of us here will be happy to enlighten you about either by posting direct quotes or by pointing you to the literature where it can be found.

Because you have treated my responses like that of a debate I don't care to post the quotes but rather let you discover them in private as not to cause public embarassment over you aggressive posting in the last 24 hours on a topic that you appear to be lacking a full understanding.....

For the record you might take note that while this is a discussion forum about JWs, most of us here are either EXs, disgruntled or questioning JWs with the remainder being those whose acquaintances or loved ones are JWs......the "PRO-WTS" margin is very small and I am not personally in that camp.

I might disagree with the way you have handled yourself in the last 24 hours but I am not your enemy......and since I have presented a link to download the current WTCD it should be noted I am trying to help you. Having full access to what publishers receive can help you better to discern your 'ministry' (for the lack of better wording) aimed at JWs.....

Cordially........Yknot.

moshe

A Christian may have some doubts about Jesus and the Trinity, but they have faith and "believe", until such time as G-d shows them otherwise.

A Jew says he has doubts about Jesus and he chooses to "not believe", until such time as G-d shows him otherwise.

Unfortunately, lack of discernment allows JW's to show up at your door and pretend to have the answer to your prayers. However, if the Mormons beat the JW to the door of the householder who is on his knees praying, "Lord help me", then yes, that person is probably going to become a Mormon. See how well the Holy Spirit answers prayers?

Which method do you think works best in life for solving problems and keeping you out of trouble? I think most people will say, "show me the money"- and perhaps that is the safest course.

GromitSK

My recollection is that the JWs taught that although Jesus was merely a man when on Earth, he had a prior spiritual existence and was the first and only directly created being. I seem to recall that everything else was created through him according to JW theology. Then when he died he went back into that or a similar position. I may be wrong here and my memory may have suffered from trying to erase all the bullshit.

I would call myself now an agnostic and definitely not Christian but I have to say that on the subject of the Trinity - when Christians try to explain it it sounds like the worst kind of tortured shoe-horning. That is to say they dont appear to really understand what they are trying to explain. I think the evidence to support it from the Bible is tenuous in the extreme. Having said that I havent got much time for the Bible either. I do like Jeff Ts comparison with the wavicle.

Personally people can believe what they like however this all looks like two bald men arguing over a comb again.

jonathan dough

ypo: Because you have treated my responses like that of a debate I don't care to post the quotes but rather let you discover them in private as not to cause public embarassment over you aggressive posting in the last 24 hours on a topic that you appear to be lacking a full understanding.....

Don't worry about embarassing me. Post your quotes for everyone to see. Don't hide behind 'private' communication. If I'm wrong, please prove it and I will gladly recant. But as of right now you have yet to proffer one single piece of contradictory evidence. And yes, this is a debate. Most of the discussions here are debates. I've done my homework and now it is your turn. But do me a favor. Read what I have written first and don't assume I don't know what I am talking about.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

AllTimeJeff

Jonathan, I have read what you have written, and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.

You have an opinion that goes basically: 'Jesus is part of the trinity, and I believe that the trinity accurately describes god.'

The problem is that you are presenting your opinion as an indisputable fact.

Perhaps it would be better to leave off by saying that you strongly believe that the trinity, despite what others say. That is of course, your right.

It is also the right of others to disagree with you.

God/Jesus/Trinity/Spaghetti Monster could make this MUCH easier by coming out, and not relying on others, like yourself, to make his case.

Either way, don't get me wrong, if your belief in the Trinity makes your life better, then you should not give it up. I am not trying to dissuade you.

But I think its sad that your god can't do his own talking for himself.

jonathan dough

ATJ: Jonathan, I have read what you have written, and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.

You have an opinion that goes basically: 'Jesus is part of the trinity, and I believe that the trinity accurately describes god.'

The problem is that you are presenting your opinion as an indisputable fact.

If you took the time to read the information I provided you would soon learn that it is not just my opinion but that of the Catholic and Protestant churches and countless theologians. I'm not here out on a limb. And I question how you can say I don't kow what I am talking about since you haven't read the many resources I have cited let alone address any of the issues. And if you have, then why don't you address specific instances and prove us wrong, without going off topic. But let's keep it focused.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

AllTimeJeff

Jonathan, its not your resources. I am well aware of the theological head nodders you have quoted. We all know that Catholics in particular believe in the Trinity.

You do realize though that you are still in a minority? Like I said, 6 out of 7 people now alive on this planet worship god and express themselves spiritually without in any way paying homage to your trinitarian god?

The concept of the trinity is a theory, that is accepted by a minority of the worlds population.

I don't wish to debate the trinity, I am with the 6 out of 7 people who also do not believe in your trinity...

Look at the scoreboard. Christians are not a majority at all. They are just one of many. Your views on god are just one of many, one of many opinions that is.

Again, believe as you will, but your opinions are just opinions, an exercise in biblical exegesis. But the fact that members of your own club agree with you does not change the fact that other clubs exist.

stillajwexelder

The book "When Jesus Became God" is excellent

AdaMakawee

Before it was a triune man god, it was a triune mother goddess. maiden mother crone. That goes back into pre-history. It wasn't just the christians that borrowed heavily from pagans.

Ada

TD

I'm not a JW either. JW literature has always seemed contrdictory to me when it comes to this question:

Two examples:

"No"

According to the Bible, then, Jesus had a prehuman existence as the Word. When on the earth, he was not a divine God-man. He was wholly human, though perfect, as Adam originally was. Since Jesus’ resurrection, he has been an exalted immortal spirit ever subordinate to God. Clearly, therefore, the Scriptures do not support the idea of "the divinity of Christ." (The Watchtower January 15, 1992 p. 23)

"Yes/Maybe"

Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it "pleased the Father" (KJ,Dy), because it was "by God’s own choice." (NE) So the fullness of "divinity" that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. (Insight Volume 1 p. 639)

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

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