Farkel
It's done in degrees using as a yardstick what is known as a "Monthly Field Service Report" and it's all Bible-Based(tm).
Correction, it's all Watch Tower based.
How Are JW's Sins Forgiven?
by Perry 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
Deputy Dog
-
Sad emo
How Are JW's Sins Forgiven?
They aren't.
Chalam, with respect, that's not your call to make!
In the account of the healing of the paralytic which Perry quoted from, did the paralytic ask for his sins to be forgiven - or was Jesus aware that the man had repented in his heart before God in heaven? Jesus knew exactly what state the man was in without any need for outside information.
With that in mind, putting aside the corporate aspect of the WT, each individual JW is dealt with by God on an individual basis. From reading here, even though the WT teaches that only the 144,000 benefit directly from Christ's sacrifice, many individual, ordinary JWs - dare I say, like angel eyes - do still put their faith in that same sacrifice - even though they might not have a correct theological understanding of the sacrifice or of Jesus - even many mainstream Christians, myself included, don't have all the right answers about everything!
So, take away everything else - the theology, the religion, the manmade rules and regs and each of us is left with this:
"And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved" Joel 2:32
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:9-13
-
Chalam
Hi Sad Emo,
Chalam , with respect, that's not your call to make!
Jesus is judge, agreed.
However, surely we should be able to make a good call if someone is saved?
Luke 6:43-44 (New International Version)
A Tree and Its Fruit
43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.James 2:18 (New International Version)
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
The bible confirms it, we will see the fruit and works evident from the Holy Spirit at work in the believer and recognise the "type of tree".
All the best,
Stephen
-
Perry
It helped level the scales, so to speak, A perfect man sinned so a perfect man needed to level the scales, when Jesus accomplished that we were then forgiven. The ones who have died have paid for their sins, the new system is our reward.....everyones reward :)
Angel Eyes,
Please prepare to meet God's Justice. As a 4th generation Witness, I am quite sure that most Witnesses have never heard it. God says that if anyone sins, it is a capital offence....requiring the death penalty.
The Bad News
The bad news for man is that there will be a judgment after you die:
...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:-Hebrews 9: 27
And I saw a great white throne ...And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; ... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
-Rev. 20: 11-13
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. - Matthew 12:36
God's response to the problem of evil is to leave man's ability to choose intact but at the same time punish wrong moral choices (Isaiah 26:21). God has done this by sometimes allowing the punishment of morally innocent (animals) in place of the guilty one, and at other times by punishing the sinner himself.
...without shedding of blood is no remission. - Hebrews 9: 22
Under the old Law Covenant mediated by Moses, a provision was made whereby a person's sins could be transferred onto a sinless animal, first by the priest and then by the sinner by laying their hands on its head:
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: - Levet:16:21
And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, unto the LORD, to make an atonement for the Levites. - Numbers 8:12
Then, the animal was slaughtered in place of the sinner. The sentence of death was still carried out according to the LAW. However, this process of animal substitution had to be repeated because the sinless animal, while suffering the death sentence for the guilty person, could not thereafter impart PERFECT LIFE to the sinner, making future sin inevitable. This is why you MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
The Watchtower obscures the Old Testament system of vicarious punishment so that the doctrine of the Ransom can be sold to unsuspecting sinners. Did you really believe that all those sacrifices were only for a "sweet smelling odor"? The Ransom false doctrine still leaves YOU vulnerable to Judgment, because YOUR SINS haven't been punished. Get it?
Only in the New Covenant (Contract) where Jesus takes YOUR PLACE, can you avoid personal judgment. JW's readily agree that they are no part of the New Covenant, so they have excluded themselves from God's vicarious punishment of their sins on Calvary Hill.
-
Sad emo
The bible confirms it, we will see the fruit and works evident from the Holy Spirit at work in the believer and recognise the "type of tree".
I agree, so on this basis would you also agree that some individual JWs display this evidence? If so, are they saved?
How about these verses:
"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." (Luke 9:49-50)
Do we sometimes exclude JWs because they're "not one of us"?
Maybe the judgement falls more greatly upon those leaders who have led the sheep astray:
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck." (Mark 9:42)
(there's another passage somewhere in the letters which speaks of the leaders being held accountable for the people under their care, but I can't find it and I need my bed now!)
-
Chalam
Hi SE,
I agree, so on this basis would you also agree that some individual JWs display this evidence? If so, are they saved?
Not the ones I know. They are nice people, good morals and such but I see no evidence of spiritual renewal/rebirth that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As it is, they don't believe in that anyhow or only for the 144, 000.
How about these verses:
"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." (Luke 9:49-50)
Good verses. Bear in mind the whole of the biblical teaching on the matter though, no one verse or passage in isolation Matthew 7:21-23
Do we sometimes exclude JWs because they're "not one of us"?
No. There are two Kingdoms and you are either in one or the other. Two paths, the right or the wrong one. I used to think "JWs have some things screwed up but they are on the right lines". Now I have seen more of the WT and life as a JW. JWs are in the dark and they a groping around blind, led by blind guides.
Maybe the judgement falls more greatly upon those leaders who have led the sheep astray:
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck." (Mark 9:42)
Agreed!
(there's another passage somewhere in the letters which speaks of the leaders being held accountable for the people under their care, but I can't find it and I need my bed now!)
Hebrews 13:17? This applies to godly leaders but I also believe that ungodly leaders will incur judgement for their own actions plus for those they lead astray.
Anyhow, hope you are well. Blessings, Stephen -
AuntBee
Angel Eyes said: "if we know we have led a truly clean life and been repentent,confessed sins when needed, lived according to Jehovahs standards then we are forgiven "
Have you ever read where Jesus clarified Jehovahs standards in the Sermon on the Mount? I don't feel i have lived according to Jehovahs standards on most days, let alone as a characteristic of my entire life. Have i led a truly clean life? NO. Do i confess sins when needed? I doubt it. I think there are many sins i commit that i am not even aware of. Especially if one includes in the definition of sin, sins of omission, as well as sins of the heart, attitudes , words ,etc. In the JW theology, is it really only the "biggies" you have to worry about? The external ones?
THe last JW i spoke with said that God knows our heart, and she was saying this as though it would be a comfort. This is not a comfort to me, that God knows my heart. I would be fearful in light of this, if it weren't for Christ as my mediator, and the One who died in my behalf.
Perry is right. The WT claims to be the only Christian organization on earth, but takes away the most basic, awesome , most comforting joy spoken of in the New Testament.....Jesus died for our sins!
-
designs
DD, the point of personal growth is to leave superstitions behind, self actualization, self awareness and wanting to contribute positively to this world got the ball rolling for many of us. To see xjws join Fundamentalism or Catholicism is like watching a person leave one abusing marriage only to marry another abusive person. As they say in counseling- 'they weren't done yet'.
-
Chalam
Angel Eyes said: "if we know we have led a truly clean life and been repentent,confessed sins when needed, lived according to Jehovahs standards then we are forgiven
I was just reading through the thread again and thought I should respond to this, however, AuntBee obviously had the same though, great post!
The statement smacks of salvation by works which is contrary to grace, i.e. unmerited favour.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Perry is right. The WT claims to be the only Christian organization on earth, but takes away the most basic, awesome , most comforting joy spoken of in the New Testament.....Jesus died for our sins!
I agree. The problem is, ask any JW and they will tell you "Christ died for our sins". However, beneath the "theocratic warfare" they are being lied to and that is not the WT doctrine at all.
It is a similar situation to Jesus' role as mediator with the Father. JWs think Jesus is their Mediator as the bible clearly states but the WT says He is not.
JWs have their whole faith built upon the sand without foundation. They need to build on the Rock, that is Jesus Luke 6:48 1 Peter 2:7 1 Corinthians 3:11 Ephesians 2:19-21
All the best,
Stephen
-
Deputy Dog
designs
To see xjws join Fundamentalism or Catholicism is like watching a person leave one abusing marriage only to marry another abusive person. As they say in counseling- 'they weren't done yet'.
Beside the fact that you avoid justice, what kind of "counselor" are you?