but is being built by Christ, its cornerstone... and the stone which those you've named reject.
I rest my case.
is jesus a god?
by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jonathan dough
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AGuest
Peace to you!
You ask:
Tha fact is that Aguest only views Jesus as "a god" so I am curious as to if that means "one of many" or what?
You have to keep in mind what a "god" is, at least as far as that term is used in the Greek NT. The word "theos" primarily denotes an immortal, which spirit beings are. An immortal is someone that does not die, does not need physical sustenance, is not limited by physical flesh, etc. ALL spirit beings are immortals... and thus, gods. That is why so many cultures are polytheistic and so have multiple gods: they worship ALL spirit beings, ALL immortals. All... gods. Although these are NOT to BE worshipped. Revelation 19:10; 22:9
But, in the sense that the word "theos" means a "god" in the sense of one that is immortal, yes, our lord is a "god" as in one of many... immortals.
However, the word "theos" ALSO denotes a "divine deity"... one that IS to be worshipped (this is where those mentioned above get it confused). In this light, our Lord is NOT a God; he is the SON of God. It is the MOST High God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who is to be worshipped. Christ, our Lord, His SON, however... is to be KISSED (honored and listened to). Which is not quite the same thing.
The MOST Holy One of Israel is the One whom even our Lord worships... and taught US to worship:
"It is JAH your God you must worship, and it is to Him... ALONE... you must render sacred service." Luke 4:8
If, then, this is what our Lord taught... it is what WE should observe and DO... unless and until HE tells us different. Regardless of what earhtling man has said and/or written. For he that is faithful in what is LEAST... is faithful... in MUCH.
As always, I bid you peace, dear PSacramento... you and your entire household.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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jonathan dough
Javig is right about this. JWs usually will not defend their faith on this board becasue they have been instructed not to, and they can't.
Confusion about what the Trinity teaches is rampant. This introductory note helps clarify it.
“The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).
Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.
A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.
But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.
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jonathan dough
The word "theos" primarily denotes an immortal, which spirit beings are. An immortal is someone that does not die, does not need physical sustenance, is not limited by physical flesh, etc. ALL spirit beings are immortals... and thus, gods. That is why so many cultures are polytheistic and so have multiple gods: they worship ALL spirit beings, ALL immortals. All... gods. Although these are NOT to BE worshipped. Revelation 19:10; 22:9
You're a nut case. A nice one, but off your rocker.
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AGuest
I rest my case.
What, you don't believe me? Well, okay, let's see what Christ himself is recorded to have said:
"But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi... for ONE is YOUR teacher, whereas YOU are all brothers. Moreover, do not call ANYONE YOUR father on earth, for ONE is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for YOUR Leader is one, the CHRIST." Matthew 23:8-10
Wait...
"You address ME, 'Teacher' and, 'Lord,' and you speak rightly... for I am such. Therefore, if I, although Lord and Teacher, washed YOUR feet, you ALSO... OUGHT TO WASH THE FEET OF ONE ANOTHER." John 13:13, 14
and...
"Why, then, do you call ME 'Lord! Lord!' but do not DO the things I SAY?" Luke 6:46
Now, it is you, dear JDough, and those YOU named (Catholics and Protestants) who believe the Bible to be the infallible and unaltered word of God. Yet, such ones have "fathers" (indeed, HOLY Fathers, even!) and "leaders" and "teachers," etc. There are popes, and pastors, and reverends, and elders, and GB'rs... galore.
I have ONE God and Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and ONE Teacher and Leader TO that God, His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. John 14:6; 10:27
I rest MY case... and bid YOU peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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jonathan dough
AGuest, you don't want to go toe-to-toe with me. I don't repond to your arguments because they are absurd. You're a fraud. You have no idea what Christianity teaches.
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PSacramento
Aguest,
So, Jesus is "just" a god then, like satan and others that "would be called Gods" ?
I understand that you view that the NT ( since we are discussing the NT now) as having neen altered and as such one can't really trust what is written, that is why passages that imply Jesus's divinity and his "co-equalness" with Our Father as not accepted, yes?
Passages that state that Jesus was the exact form of God, in Jesus all the fullness of divinety dwelt, how he was far superiour than any angel, how he did not hold onto equality with God, etc, are not "correct" or mean something other than is stated, yes?
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javig
i have a question for aguest..do you believe in the trinity? i asked cause you comments gave me the impression that you belive Jesus is the father, son, and holy spirit and your words "my Lord is a god" makes me think you are a jw...so if you believe in the trinity then i apologize for misjudging you....thanks...
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AGuest
Seriously??!! (and may you have peace)..
I have no arguments - what I share is not my own (well, except where I indicate I am speaking on my own). I speak what I hear and receive from the Holy Spirit, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son of God. Even the Bible... which you obviously put YOUR faith in... corroborates that truth:
2 Corinthians 3:17 - "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty/freedom."
Romans 8:36 - "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me..."
Hebrews 12:25 - "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven..."
Now, most probably you don't know about these verses because YOU put YOUR faith in don't know about them... or understand them. That is because, like most, they lean upon their OWN understanding... rather than following the Lamb and letting HIM teach them... which defective knowledge they pass on to ones like you.
BUT... so be it: you believe me the fraud. And that is entirely your perogative; believe what you will. But don't think that I will shrink away simply because you've chosen to use some "challenging" words. Because they are just that... words... and nothing more. I don't fear you, dear JDough, what you insinutate you "know"... or your "challenge." Not... at... all. I mean, I truly do not wish to go "toe-to-toe" with anyone, let alone you. But as far as I know this is a free forum... where anyone can speak pretty freely... and so I will speak the truth... FREELY... as well as for free... as the Spirit directs me to do.
I should ask, though, who... or rather, what ... speaks to YOU... and is the "source" of YOUR knowledge (as to what christianity "teaches" or perhaps anything else)???
Hmmmm... yes, that's what I thought. In that case, I'll see your "what Christianity teaches" and raise you one "what the Holy Spirit and anointing that is in ME teaches." John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:26, 27; Proverbs 8:4-11
My peace remains.
YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ, THE Holy Spirit...
SA, who exhorts you, rather than relying on other blind guides to lead you, blind man that YOU are, perhaps you will take a minute... or two... and look up the verses/scriptures I've quoted, as they might lead YOU to look for the One who can open YOUR eyes, as well.
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AGuest
Aguest, So, Jesus is "just" a god then, like satan and others that "would be called Gods" ?
Not "just" a god, dear PSacto (peace to you!). He is a god in that he is an immortal, like all other spirit beings. However, he is HIGHER than those, and so is PRINCE of princes, and LORD of Lords. Satan and the others "would be called gods" and not "Gods." There is only ONE God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies.
That Thomas called our Lord, "My God," wasn't relegating Christ, the Holy, to the position of the Most Holy (think, the temple - the Holy is just outside the MOST Holy... not IN it). He was saying that Christ was his God, yes. BUT... you have to remember: Thomas didn't have EVERYTHING right! If he DID... he wouldn't have doubted in the FIRST place. Indeed, he said, "I will NOT believe... unless I see the holes." He was still walking by SIGHT. He had not yet grasped where the level of his faith was to be... and in WHOM: Christ... who is the IMAGE of God... and the exact REPRESENTATION of His very being... although NOT God. He is the REFLECTION of God.
I understand that you view that the NT ( since we are discussing the NT now) as having neen altered and as such one can't really trust what is written, that is why passages that imply Jesus's divinity and his "co-equalness" with Our Father as not accepted, yes?
Well, not quite. For ME... it is not acceptable because the Holy Spirit rejects it... and told ME to reject it. I do so for that reason ONLY. That the NT has been altered, including as to this matter, only backs up what the Spirit told me. But it is not the reason.
Passages that state that Jesus was the exact form of God, in Jesus all the fullness of divinety dwelt, how he was far superiour than any angel, how he did not hold onto equality with God, etc, are not "correct" or mean something other than is stated, yes
To understand the TRUTH, we need to break down what is here (well, we could just listen to the Spirit, but I am direct to clarify in this way):
1. The exact form of God - We have to places to look when considering this statement: Philippians 2:6 and Hebrews 1:2. For the first, the Greek uses the word morphe, which means:
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2)external appearance
what does this mean? Picture an artist who has a vision in his mind... and wants to bring that vision to form. The form is NOT the vision... but a representation of the vision. The verse in Hebrews helps us see that. There, the Greek uses the word khä-räk-ta'r, which means:
1) the instrument used for engraving or carving
2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile
What does this mean? T hat Christ is the image, reflection, facsimile, reproduction… of the ORIGINAL. None of these is, of course, the original… but a very close likeness. The MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… is the vision, the original. The HOLY One of Israel, Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… is the FORM... the copy, likeness, reflection, facsimile, reproduction. God PROJECTED His image and glory ON that One… so that we could SEE Him (God). But he, Christ, is NOT God – he is the INSTRUMENT, the SCREEN… on which the reflection is projected. The “paper” on which the copy/facsimile is marked. The “canvas” or “clay” on/out of which the reproduction is drawn/molded. He is a COPY… of the original; a form of the vision (Note, this is NOT a "form" as in a type/kind - i.e., having a form of godly devotion - but "form" as in a casting, a product - i.e., that which comes OUT of a mold to manifest/represent/depict the hollow of the mold. God is the mold; Christ is the form).
2. in Jesus all the fullness of divinety dwelt - This is entirely true! Christ was the "temple" in God's spirit dwelled. Initially, that spirit resided in the temple [at Jerusalem] in the MOST Holy... above the cover of the Ark, between the wings of the cherubs that were on the cover. When my Lord came up from the Jordan, God's spirit LEFT its residing place in the temple at Jerusalem, and came upon and INTO Christ. It was by means OF that spirit... that he turned water into wine, healed the sick, fed the hungry, walked on water, resurrected the dead... and raised up FROM the dead. God's spirit... His blood, semen, LIFE FORCE... which resided IN Christ... made Christ's MORTAL body... ALIVE. It is what keeps US, those who have such spirit, alive IN the spirit. Christ, aftr ascending back to the Father, was granted to give the spirit... holy spirit... to OTHERS. And so he poured out that spirit upon some of earthling man... who were then also able to perform works, etc., by means OF that spirit... which was now in THEM... the NEW temple of God. Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Acts 2:1-4, 17, 18; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; Ephesians 2:19-22
The problem is, of course, the words, dear PSacto - which is why their entymology is often quite important. Most words mean more than one thing and it is discerning WHICH "thing" is the correct one. Earthling man has used his own understanding, that ofother men, and/or guessed... which has led to the great confusion surrounding the Bible and its contents. Who of them can we trust? According to the Bible, not one ("Woe, to you, scribes!"). So, who CAN we trust? The One the Most Holy One of Israel TOLD us to... which is corroborated by the Bible: the Spirit... of the TRUTH. Christ... is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17)... AND that Truth (John 14:6).
I ask you, dear PSacto: why drink water downstream... where it has passed through all sorts of "places" and "towns," and "cities"... so as to have been "treated" such that vital ingredients have been "removed," and unnecessary "additives" have been, well, added? Why not drink... AT THE SOURCE... BEFORE the water has been polluted... or stripped of every vital nutrient? Think, dear one: that is WHY our Lord admonished: "All you who are thirsting... come to ME... and drink!"
Life's water pours out from HIS innermost parts, dear one... and no other.
As always, I bid you peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA