Social Influence Part I, II

by larc 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  DannyBear

  larc,

  I wont cite books or studies, my time and inclanations are not so inclined.

  Finding a niche in society, or social structure, is a life long journey. All predicated on where you are, literally. Time, place, conditions, associates, all effecting the choices one makes. This social influence changes, regularly based upon current events.

  It seems to be very easy for those (normaly non-violent) caught up in mob action of any sort, to strip themselves of formerly tightly held beliefs and participate in very violent acts. Peer preasure, when applied to young and old, is probably more responsible for changing peoples actions than any education, or indoctrination ever has.

  The dynamics of this kind of social influence, can be seen even in the simpelist forms of communication or interchange. The dynamics of this discussion board, is rooted in peer presure.

  You start to mix in 'sacred scripture', uncontestable words of authority, peoples hopes and dreams, along with group peer presure, you have a very powerful concoction. Thus enter religion, exercise this presure with mind numbing, repetitive indoctrination, you create literal walking zombies.

  Thus the success of the WTBS, they are master's at blending peer presure, with 'spiritual' goads that just solidify the poor rank and files adherence to 'the way'.

  It took you and I 10yrs to shed the chain's. The power of this social reality 'peer presure' is exercised on us daily, even if we have a hard time recognizing it. Politicians, law enforcerment, governments, religions, all know how to work the 'crowds'....the crowds then exercise thier power, even if they do not realize it.

  So it is always good imo, to review your stance, your conclusions, to see if you have not been overly influenced by the 'crowds'.

  Thanks for inviting me over to your thread.

  Danny
• 

  larc

  Hey Danny,

  I wouldn't expect you to quote studies. There is a reason I can do it. From 1986 until the end of 1999, I explained this to students for a total of about 40 times, so the stuff is pretty much burned into my brain.

  After reading your comments, it occurred to me that as a result of my JW experience, I never was a "joiner" for the rest of my life. This may have hurt my career, since I was not big on "networking" as they call it but I did OK and OK is good enough for me.
• 

  sleepy

  Thank for the useful insights.

  It is obvious when we think of it that humans feel comfortable conforming to groups.
  Not many people are comfortable with being different , usually "different" people are seen as odd or a bit mad.
  And if we are honest with ourselves most of us find it difficult to get on with people who are too diferent to us.
• 

  teejay

  Larc,

  Thanks for sharing these studies with us. I would have enjoyed being a student in your class... I just love this stuff!!

  Using teenagers, not long ago one of the newsmagazine shows (Dateline or maybe 20/20) did a demonstration that copied Asch's experiment that caused one kid to act in a way that he knew was wrong. I don't remember exactly what the test was, but I DO remember how deeply sad for him it made me feel. I really can't say why, only that the kid lacked enough strength to stand against the tide of peer pressure. I understand how that truth of human nature applies in a congregational setting involving men who are pressured to conform to decisions they know in their hearts are wrong. Elders are humans, too.

  In Jr. High we briefly went over Zimbardo's study involving students that play-acted as either jailors or prisoners. The implication you pointed to, that the role you are in greatly affects your behavior, clearly applies in the case of elders. It would be good to make every single elder aware of these two studies. Of course, that would defeat the purpose of the governing body. As it is with the military, little is accomplished if everyone is a free thinker, able to decide on the importance of every directive.

  As I mentioned to Ginny in the other thread, I don't judge the elders. Amnesian simply made the case that elders are accountable for what they do. Yes they are victims like everybody else, but they should be very aware of the implications of the two studies you have cited here. I wish I had the answer. I don't.

  I was an active, believing Witness, never advancing above "publisher," for more than thirty years. Still, I tended to not act as an average publisher. I have a serious streak of non-conformity, rebellion, whatever you want to call it. Even so, I hate to think... and I mean that... I hate to think of the man I might have become had I reached elder status and lived under the pressure of the social influences these men studied.

  If I had, I'd prefer to now be like my friend Danny and simply say, "I was wrong. I'm sorry. I will try to do better from here on out."
• 

  waiting

  Howdy Larc,

  Fine discussions happening here and other threads. Thanks for your insight. The below sites came across my way upon first coming on the net - I found them fascinating with the implications on how the human mind works in captivity and/or power capacity.

  I really believe that the blame, the victims, the circumstances, can't be said to be black/white, he/she, them/us.
  There are just too many variations to the mind.

  Milgram's experiment on "Obedience to Authority"

  .. http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML

  Quote: Although no-one actually received any electric shocks, Milgram's study came under fire for the adverse it had on the "teachers". Milgram's interviews with his subjects tended to confirm the view that ordinary everyday people can cause pain and suffering to another person under the right set of circumstances. Milgram recounts one interview in particular with a devout Catholic married to a plumber... According to Milgram she gave the impression of complete humility. At 225 volts she turned to the experimenter and in a tentative voice said "I hesitate to press these". But when the experimented told her to continue, she did. Later she hesitated again, but once again, when the experimenter insisted that she continue, she did... right up to the maximum 450 volt shock."

  Societal Stockholm Syndrome

  .. http://web2.airmail.net/ktrig246/out_of_cave/sss.html

  Quote: The Stockholm incident compelled journalists and social scientists to research whether the emotional bonding between captors and captives was a "freak" incident or a common occurrence in oppressive situations. They discovered that it's such a common phenomenon that it deserves a name. Thus the label, Stockholm Syndrome, was born. It has happened to concentration camp prisoners, cult members, civilians in Chinese Communist prisons, pimp-procured prostitutes, incest victims, physically and/or emotionally abused children, battered women, prisoners of war, victims of hijackings, and of course, hostages. Virtually anyone can get Stockholm Syndrome it the following conditions are met:

  1. Perceived threat to survival and the belief that one's captor is willing to act on that threat

  2. The captive's perception of small kindnesses from the captor within a context of terror

  3. Isolation from perspectives other than those of the captor

  4. Perceived inability to escape.

  Stockholm Syndrome is a survival mechanism. The men and women who get it are not lunatics. They are fighting for their lives. They deserve compassion, not ridicule.

  waiting

  ps: Did zazu tell you I was following in your footsteps in school? Lol......I took a class at 8am - told the counselor that I'd have a pretty good chance (grading on the curve) since most students would either still be asleep or hungover. He looked at me funny (not unusal), and I explained I had two sons in college. He went "ahhhhhhh."
• 

  larc

  Waiting,

  Thank you for providing the site that fully describes the Milgram study. That saved me some time and the link provides much more detail than I would have in my summary.

  Wish you well on your academic journey. I found that journey to be wonderful. You can have some bumps along the way, boring teachers, boring subjects, overwhelming assignments, but overall it still is terrific, as I think, Teejay can attest.

  Teejay,

  Thank you for that very nice compliment about wishing you would have been in my classes. That means a lot to me.
• 

  waiting

  well, hell, larc, I wish I could be in your classes too!

  Alas.......Ohio a couple of years past is just too far away....even for my mind!

  Glad I could be of service on the quotes.

  My son told me not to be too talkative in a "101" class as they're designed to "go by the book" and the other kids wouldn't like me. Lol, like I care.....but they could key my car, so I'll be quiet.

  waiting
• 

  teejay

  Thank you for these site, Waiting. Interesting in the extreme. God I love this board!!

  What these researchers learned about human nature is very disturbing:

  Milgram's interviews with his subjects tended to confirm the view that ordinary everyday people can cause pain and suffering to another person under the right set of circumstances.

  To me it says that questioning authority is a very important and necessary component of a well-balanced personality. These links would be an important addition to AMNESIAN's thread.

  Peace,
  tj
• 

  JT

  Phillip Zimbardo -

  he is the man- i enjoyed watching the videos about him and his test

  my wife and i were introduced to him thru video when we started college we too saw him on the Ed Channel

  great guy

  james
• 

  larc

  I brought this back for Hillary and others who may have missed it the first time.

  While I am here, I thought I would add a couple comments. Milgam's study clearly shows the difference between what people say they will do and what they actually will do. Most people might say, "Well, if I was an elder, I won't do such and such." Really?? Are you sure? Most students said they would disobey authority (96%), yet the majority (60%) continued the shocks beyond the point of the "learners" loud screams to point that it appeared that the learner was unconscious. Although many students showed great anxiety, they continued. Why? Because they had given over their personal responsibility to authority, just as a publisher gives it up to the elder, and the elder gives it up to the DO, etc, on up the line.

  When I first read the studies of Sherif, Asch, Zimbardo, and Milgram, I truely humbled regarding the powerful forces that shape our lives.

  Waiting,

  My advice regarding questions in class has more to do with the prof than it does the students. Some profs like interactivity and lots of questions. I always did. Some like to talk for long periods with no break in their concentration, with questions at the end. You have to size up the profs. Forget what other students think. It's your tuition dollars and your education.