What Are Your Thoughts On The Apostle Paul?

by cognac 109 Replies latest jw friends

  • cognac
    cognac

    I find him very confusing and difficult to figure out sometimes. Evidently, Peter did also. Anyways, I find him a bit harsh and unloving in the way he deals with the congregations and I was shocked how he rebuked with Peter. I felt like he promoted divisions and that in he said things like, "do not even eat with" fornicators that are brothers and such. He doesn't seem to have followed Jesus way of doing things as Jesus eat with sinners and tax collectors. I just found Jesus to be so much more loving then the way Paul was.

    He also seemed egotistical (sp?) to me in that he always seemed to give credit to himself and how he showed off about rebuking Peter publicly. For him to say for women to ask questions at home I find rude. The way he treated women I didn't like in general.

    He also went to Jerusalem even after God and spirit annointed men told him not to. Not sure if he ever got rebuked for that.

    Anyways, in Thess. in talks about God sending somebody to confuse people because they didn't first accept Jesus sacrifice or something like that. I have to wonder if he was speaking about Paul when he said that.

    Idk, what are your thoughts?

  • sooner7nc
    sooner7nc

    First, he shoulda kept the name Saul. Paul's a queefy name, but Saul sounds badass.

    Seriously, he reminds me of guys I've known in the past who weren't born-in, but were brought in by a mate, family member, etc. These guys were of above average...I wouldn't say intelligence, but maybe they had leadership qualities that were quite a bit higher than the other bros. in the hall. Well, long story short, they progressed rather quickly in the hierarchy, and things in the congo. were never the same. Paul reminds me of that, fresh blood so intent on leaving his own personal stamp, that he ignores any and all "protocol" that those early Christians were accustomed to.

    My 2 cents

    sooner

  • ldrnomo
    ldrnomo

    A Pharisee is a Pharisee is a Pharisee. He was just doing his job of starting a new Pharisee class with the Christians. I think he might have thought he was some kind of saint like the anointed today do.

    Paul, Smaul, Saul, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Don't forget, they all think they are God's chosen or should we now say Jehovah's chosen.

    Too bad everyone took him so seriously.

    LD

  • behemot
    behemot

    I agree with what romanian philosopher Emil Cioran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Cioran) says about Paul in his book La tentation d'exister (The Temptation to Exist):

    (translation mine)

    We will never blame him enough for having turned Christianity into an inelegant religion, by introducing in it the more detestable Old Testament traditions: intolerance, brutality, provincialism. With what indiscretion does he meddle in things he shouldn’t be concerned with, things he doesn’t have a clue about! His remarks on virginity, abstinence and marriage are frankly repugnant. Responsible of our religious and moral prejudices, he has set the norms of stupidity and multiplied the restrictions that still paralyze our instincts.

    Of the ancient prophets he doesn’t have the lyricism nor the elegiac and cosmic accent, rather the sectarian spirit and what they had of bad taste, jabber, rambling. His interest for the citizens habits is immense. As soon as he talks about them, you sense him vibrating with naughtiness. Obsessed by the city, by the one he wants to destroy and by the one he wants to build, he cares less about the relationship between man and God than he does about the relationship among men. Read carefully his famous Epistles: you will never find an instant of relaxation and gentleness, of meditation and nobility; everything in them is furor, anxiety, cheap hysteria, incomprehension for knowledge, for the solitude of knowledge […] Sins, rewards, an accounting of vices and virtues. A religion without questions, an orgy of anthropomorphism. As to the God he offers us, I blush; disqualifying him is a duty […]

    In embracing a doctrine that was foreign to him, a convert thinks he has made a step toward himself, while he is just trying to elude his problems. To escape lack of self-confidence – his chief feeling – he offers himself to the first cause chance presents to him. Once he possesses the “truth”, he will avenge himself over the others of his past insecurities, of his past fears. Such was the case of the emblematic converts, St. Paul. His magniloquent poses hardly concealed an anxiety that he tried to overcome without succeeding.

    As with all newbies, he believed that with his new faith he would have changed his nature and won his hesitations, which he took care to say nothing about to his hearers. His game no longer deceives us. […] True, those were times when people looked for “truth”, they did not care about cases. If in Athens the apostle was ill-welcomed, if he found an environment insensitive to his ramblings, this is because there people still discussed and skepticism, far from abdicating, kept on defending his positions. Christian silliness could not catch on there; but it would seduce Corinth, city of slums, hostile to dialectics.

    Common people want to be dazed by invectives, threats and revelations, by resounding talks: they love charlatans.

    St. Paul was one, the more inspired, the more gifted, the more shrewd of antiquity. We still perceive the echoes of the noise he made. […] The sages of his time recommended silence, resignation, abandon, all impracticable things; more clever, he came with tasty recipes: those which save the mob and demoralize the frail ones. His revenge over Athens was complete. Had he triumphed there, perhaps his hate would have sweetened. Never had a setback a graver outcome. And if we are mutilated, struck, crucified pagans, pagans passed through a deep, memorable vulgarity, a two thousand years old vulgarity, we owe it to that setback. […]

    A rotten civilization comes to terms with its evil, it loves the virus that corrodes it, no longer has self-respect, it leaves a St. Paul around… By this it declares itself defeated, worm-eaten, terminated. The carcass’ smell attracts and excites the apostles, cupid and talkative buriers.

    A world of magnificence and splendor surrendered before the aggressiveness of these “enemies of the Muses”, of these madmen who, to this day, inspire a panic mixed with aversion. Paganism treated them with irony, a harmless weapon, too noble to submit a mob reluctant to nuances. The refined one who reasons cannot measure against the obtuse who prays.

  • wobble
    wobble

    I don't read Paul that way, I think he needs reading as does all scripture, look at the milieu he found himself in,look at the kind of people he was dealing with,and think of the problems he is addressing.

    Most of his commands and counsel do not apply in any direct way today, so why should we be offended by them ?

    "Oh he was tolerant of slavery " Well he recognised it as a fact of life. And so on, consider the whole context, historical and emotional etc.etc. and I don't believe you would be so anti-paul. He was well loved by many in his day, that says much to make one approach his writings with the care they deserve.

    Love

    Wobble

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    If we take into account the epistles that in which Paul's authorship are not debated and take them as a whole, you get a picture of Paul that is LESS of what many take him to be.

    Paul was, along with John and BEFORE John ( don't forget that Paul's epistiles are older than the Gospels), one of the most ardent preachers of love there was.

    His views on love in 1Corinthinas chapter 13 is a beautiful piece of work, he views of Grace truly explaines the love the Jesus has for us far better than the synopitc for example.

    Yes, some of his views are rather "pharisical" and at times his jewish unbring seems to get the better of him, but he was only human and a lot of his stuff was taken out of context, the part about disassociating from people was him telling a congregation to do that of AN INDIVIDUAL that was unrepentant nad causing quite a bit of trouble, it was NOT a set in stone rule of how to deal with people because Paul does say on more than one occasion how important it is to forgive and accept and how we are all sinners and to NOT judge one another.

    Paul's problem is that he wrote for his audience and that gave the view that he was contridictory, and other times he wrote about specifics in general terms.

    Lets also not forget that, 1Timothy for example, some of his epistles seem to have been "added on to" by who ever was taking dictation.

    Like any author, Paul must be take as a whole and not just parts, for every "intolerant" thing he said, he said wuite a bit more about love.

  • cognac
    cognac

    If he was in fact given his own opinion, it wouldn't be as bad. However, when he spoke of women, his judgemental attitude towards gays, fornicators, etc that's when it irritates me. When he gives those opinions, it is never said that those are his own opinions in those instances and not Gods. So, in the case where he represents God I have to wonder why those things were allowed in an "inspired" bible.

    Yes, some of his views are rather "pharisical" and at times his jewish unbring seems to get the better of him, but he was only human

    But, if the bible is inspired of God then unless otherwise stated, wouldn't we have to take that his words as the word of God?

  • JWoods
    JWoods

    I have come to think that Paul was certainly a bombastic mysogenist, a shameless self-promoter, and very possibly a closet or repressed gay himself.

    He was in my teenage days a favorite bible character - the sailcloth-sewing man of action, so to speak.

    Now, I can barely tolerate some of the things he wrote.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Cognac, in Cor Paul is refuting alot of incorrect beleifs attributed to him. (Views on woman being one example). Many of his statemnts are preceded with statements showing he is reported to have said, while he did not say it.

  • angel eyes
    angel eyes

    I think he is great, encouraging and upbuilding, shame we dont have enough like him now adays.

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