Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:25-26) Jesus only had 12 Apostles (Rev. 21:14). I view Paul as Jesus did. (Rev. 2 :2)
What Are Your Thoughts On The Apostle Paul?
by cognac 109 Replies latest jw friends
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Deputy Dog
PS
Imagine if there was no epistles at all and only Matthew and Revelation for example or there was no Johnanine works, imagin if there was no Pauline theology AT ALL, no controversy AND no justification by Faith, no grace under God.
DD,
Of course I agree that Jesus said it before Paul, that is who he got it from :)
But Paul was the first to put it in writing, arugably.
Here is another teaching on justification by Jesus, apart from Paul. There are more.
Luk 18:10
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14"I tell you, this man went to his house justifiedrather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
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isaacaustin
Cognac, this was what I meant when I said that flesh and blood is defined by the following verses:
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- 23 24 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
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- 25 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
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- in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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- For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.
Flesh and blood simply means mortailty. Notice too, nothing is taken away from the person- something is added- incorruptibility and immortality are added.
Notice some NWT deception in ROmans 8:23 to bolster their claim of disembodiment:
23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
Is this a correct rendering?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=8&v=23&t=KJV#vrsn/23 Available Translations and Versions for Romans 8:23
KJV - Rom 8:23 - And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. NKJV - Rom 8:23 - Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. NLT - Rom 8:23 - And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children,* including the new bodies he has promised us. Footnote:
* Greek wait anxiously for sonship.© Info : - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NIV - Rom 8:23 - Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. © Info : - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
ESV - Rom 8:23 - And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. RVR - Rom 8:23 - y no sólo ella, sino que también nosotros mismos, que tenemos las primicias del Espíritu, nosotros también gemimos dentro de nosotros mismos, esperando la adopción, la redención de nuestro cuerpo. © Info : - Reina-Valera © 1960 Sociedades Bíblicas en América Latina
NASB - Rom 8:23 - And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. © Info : - New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV - Rom 8:23 - and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ASV - Rom 8:23 - And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for [our] adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. YNG - Rom 8:23 - And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; © Info : - Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
DBY - Rom 8:23 - And not only [that], but even *we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, [that is] the redemption of our body. WEB - Rom 8:23 - And not only [they], but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. HNV - Rom 8:23 - Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. A big difference between our bodies being redeemed or released and us being released from our bodies. Only the NWT translates it this way. The release, or redemption of our body is release from mortality and corruption, which Paul expounds on in 1 Cor 15.
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isaacaustin
Cognac, and Deputy Dog, yes...only those born of the Spirit can inherit God's Kingdom...John 3 speaks of this...
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- Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above."
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- Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
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- Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
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- What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
Verse 6 defines verse 3....born of the water is simply a physical, fleshly birth....while being 'born-again' is a spiritual birth...
John 1 touches on this spiritual birth:
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- But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
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- 8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man's decision but of God.
Notice 1 Cor speaks of spiritual bodies...but NEVER spirit bodies. Spiritual means empowered by the Holy Spirit.
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PSacramento
DD,
Yes, I am aware that Luke mentiones it too, but Luke was written AFTER Paul's letters and no doubt Luke was influenced by Paul since they were friends and companions.
My simple point was that Paul, of the NT writers, was the first to put on paper the justification through Faith and not works.
Yes, Abraham was the FIRST one to be justified but obviously THAT lesson was lost on the Jews or at least some of the Jews, the law makers.
Back on subject, Paul may have been an ass at times, so where the rest of the apostles, doesn't mean we shoudl focus on the "bad" parts that are minimal and disregard the benefitial parts which are in the majority, if we do that we are no better than the JW's.
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Deputy Dog
PS
Yes, I am aware that Luke mentiones it too, but Luke was written AFTER Paul's letters and no doubt Luke was influenced by Paul since they were friends and companions.
So you think Paul influenced Luke more than Jesus, the old Testament and/or the Holy Spirit?
I think in Romans 4, Abraham and the Psalms (Psalm 32) was as likely an "influence" on Paul as anything.
My simple point was that Paul, of the NT writers, was the first to put on paper the justification through Faith and not works.
OK that wasn't what you said at first. My point was that as much as I find Paul's teaching valuable, justification and grace can easily be taught without him.
Yes, Abraham was the FIRST one to be justified but obviously THAT lesson was lost on the Jews or at least some of the Jews, the law makers.
I don't know if Abraham was "the first" or not, (you could make that point about Adam or Job for that matter) but, the lesson of justification through faith is lost by most people today.
Back on subject, Paul may have been an ass at times, so where the rest of the apostles, doesn't mean we shoudl focus on the "bad" parts that are minimal and disregard the benefitial parts which are in the majority, if we do that we are no better than the JW's.
Agreed, It was Paul himself who wrote:
1Ti 1:8
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. 12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
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PSacramento
DD,
I don't think that Paul infulenced Luke more than Luke allowed him to influence him, but I am sure he had some influence, Paul mentions Luke a few times in his writings, yes?
While I agree that justification through faith is taught elsehwere, I think we can safely say that when people think of the person ( outside of Jesus of course) that is most known for that view, it would be Paul.
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Deputy Dog
PS
I don't think that Paul infulenced Luke more than Luke allowed him to influence him, but I am sure he had some influence, Paul mentions Luke a few times in his writings, yes?
Luke may well have influenced Paul also, having seen him before and after conversion.
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PSacramento
DD,
Indeed, a valid point.
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cognac
Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:25-26) Jesus only had 12 Apostles (Rev. 21:14). I view Paul as Jesus did. (Rev. 2 :2)
This is a very interesting point. It is noteworthy to bring out that Paul said in Timothy that ALL of Asia had rejected him. I don't know if he said that before or after he wrote his letter to Ephesus. I believe he was even being tried but I'm not sure what for.
This brings up a few questions that I'm researching right now trying to figure out. It seems that in Acts that God did in fact accept him and give him his spirit. However, at that point Paul hadn't called himself Apostle. It seems that he could have been accepted by God but later disapproved...
So, my question is, could anyone other then the 12 be called Apostles? Is there a general use of the term Apostle whereas the 12 are the one with a special place with Jesus?