2 Questions For AGuest : )))

by snowbird 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

May you have peace!
And I said where is your proof? We have validation for God's voice in scripture like this: Mt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

I did not get that you made that statement. However, the Holy Spirit directs me to ask: where was the PROOF at the time ANY heard the voice of God or Christ? Where was the PROOF… when Noah told those of his day that he had been told to build an ark? Did it not come to be in a writing done over 2,000 years later? He asks me to ask you: w here was the PROOF when my Lord appeared to Moses in the bush? Did it not come i n a writing... supposedly by the very one MAKING the claim... over 100 years later? The Spirit directs me to ask you: where was the PROOF when Philip was told to join himself to the chariot of the Ethiopian? Did it not appear in something written over 50 years later? My Lord directs me to ask you: w here was the PROOF… when John received the Revelation? Who corroborated it? Was it not "corroborated" by something the one making the claim... JOHN...himself wrote? The word of my Lord to YOU is: What PROOF did John have? Who else HEARD... ANY part of it? And how many years later will what he wrote be PROVEN?
The word of my Lord, the Holy Spirit is that NONE of these things were proven... AT THE TIME THEY OCCURRED. John said HE was told that it would be one upon whom he saw holy spirit descending… and so he was able to identify the Christ. Where is the PROOF that John was told what he claimed? Where is the PROOF that holy came down upon Christ? In something written close to ten years LATER?
[The word of the Holy Spirit, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, now, to YOU, "Joseph Malik" is: "You put faith in ALL of THESE, that what THEY said and wrote, and as to whose voice THEY said it was that they heard, and whom it was that spoke to THEM, is TRUE. And I am the same One. Yet, you do not put faith in ME. Still."] (Sorry, Joe, but that's what I heard... and although I would rather NOT... 'cause I really hate the "fallout" that often occurs after... I stated it to you EXACTLY as I heard it. Whether you hear... or refrain. Because I must obey HIM... and not you... or my own [very] cowardly flesh.)
The POINT? Apparently, that y ou are like Thomas who would "NOT believe"… (not "can't believe," or "am unable to believe"... but, essentially, REFUSED to believe)... unless he SAW [something]. Thomas was not the one pronounced “happy,” then. Rather, i t was those who did NOT see… and yet believed. I can only tell you what I hear, dear Joe… and who I hear it from. The PROOF… should be in your SPIRIT… which should BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH… of what I say. Now, you might say that your spirit HASN’T borne witness. I would have to agree. NOT because your spirit DIDN’T… but because your spirit WON’T. Because God and Christ do not reside IN you… so that YOUR spirit can bear witness with THEIR spirit.

It is not necessary to write paragraphs to prove this. It is not necessary to run all over the bible to make a simple point like this. Where is the verse that says God’s voice validated what they learned?

Where is the verse that said God’s voice validated what MOSES wrote he was told.... WHEN he was told it? Is is not Moses himself who made such validation? Didn't HE write down the account as to what the MOST Holy One of Isarel told HIM? Where is the verse that validates that PHILIP was told what HE was told... WHEN he was told it? Was Luke on the Road with him? Did the eunuch HEAR when the Spirit told Philip to join himself to the chariot? Where is the verse that validates that the Apostle John was told what HE was told... by something OTHER than John... WHEN he was TOLD it? Where is the verse that validates that MATTHEW was told what you believe HE was told? Mark? Luke?

It has already been shown that the scriptures serve this purpose for us. I am not impressed with statements like: I am to warn you: such a statement is BLASPHEMY... You cannot forgive sins or raise me from death. Nor can you prevent our Lord from doing that.

First, believe me when I say I intend to impress NO ONE. This isn't about ME... at all... in the least regard. I am just a servant. As to your other comments, no, I cannot do such things (well, as least with regard to the first, and I do not possess the gift of healing so that I can do the latter). But I CAN... by means of the Holy Spirit… which Spirit I… do NOT deny… which Spirit I… KNOW to be alive… which Spirit I… KNOW speaks… tell YOU that such Spirit has said to ME… to warn YOU… that what you believe… IS a blasphemy… AGAINST that Spirit… (which is why we're even having this discussion - to wake YOU up) because YOU are saying that something the Spirit has INDEED done… it has NOT. Now, I can fear offending YOU and your sense of "righteousness"… or I can fear offending my Lord: by denying him, that he speaks, and what he has given me to say. YOU… cannot forgive MY sins… nor raise ME from death. But HE can. And so… I obey HIM. But YOU tell ME: IS it better to obey God... who I obey by obeying His Son... or to obey YOU?

Even your own paraphrase disagrees with your assumptions. It states clearly that "now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God" and not by the voice of God from heaven as you insist…

I made no such insistence. You… need to do a little work on your reading comprehension. I AGREE that it says “"now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.” I DISAGREE… by means of the Spirit that is in me, HOLY SPIRIT… as to what is MADE manifest. You say it to be Christ... that HE was the "mystery" revealed. By means of the Spirit that is in me, I am to say to you that what was made MANIFEST… what was revealed... was that by means of Christ... ALL Israel is to be saved. This was something the people of the nations DIDN’T know… and so were “lording it over” those of Israel who did NOT accept the Christ... as if they were "better." Much like many so-called "christians" do today. They didn't get it then... and many still don't get it TODAY... that Abraham's seed was chosen FIRST... and it was ONLY because of their LACK of FAITH that people of the nations can even be brought in. BUT... they were not cut off entirely. Christ... is the savior of Israel... FIRST... then the nations.
But I understand that YOU cannot “see” that. Apparently, this is because it is not FOR you to see. Perhaps that will change. In the meantime, I am to leave you to your beliefs, false though they may be. This is because you WANT to believe what YOU believe… rather than what it TRUE. So be it. Again, to your own master (a book)… you will stand… or fall.

You have not provided any material in support of your view.

What “material” would you have me provide? More “writings”? To that, I say, come back in, say... 10 to perhaps 2,000 years. Perhaps my Lord will have inspired someone to write it down by then (though the fact that it is being stated to you now... and in writing... should have sufficed)...

Why should anyone listen to you…

You should NOT listen to me. You should LISTEN… to the One “who speaks from the heavens.” HE would have told you ALL that I have shared with you. I am only speaking BECAUSE you and others DON'T hear. You DON'T listen. And so, as always with Israel... when they don't listen to the MOST Holy One of Israel, or to His Word, Christ... someone is sent.
You doubt that that is me. No worries. I am not offended. Why you not gone to HIM… and asked HIM if what the things I’ve shared with you are true... in light of the fact that you consider yourself a man... of FAITH... is, well, something to consider. The word of my Lord, the Holy Spirit, however, is that you HAVEN’T… because YOU… lack FAITH. YOU don’t BELIEVE he is ALIVE… and SPEAKS. So… you are yet deaf… and blind. By CHOICE. You are neither "hot"... or "cold." Revelation 3:17, 18

Especially when you say things that are not true like this.

I have told you from whom I receive such truths. I gave… have given... and will ALWAYS give the glory… to the Father AND the Son. Always. I am not SO… STUPID… as to say that something is by and/or from the Holy Spirit… and it is NOT. THAT… is blasphemy AGAINST that Spirit… which is UNforgivable. I KNOW this. You, however, CLAIM to know… yet you REFUSE to give that Spirit credit for what it did indeed do: reveal to Peter that the man who asked him was indeed the Son of God. Who, then, is the blasphemer?

You said; Unlike your conclusion, which means... flesh and blood... DID reveal it to Peter... and not our Father who is in heaven. Everyone reading this thread knows that I did not come to this conclusion. The error is yours.

You did, dear one. I am sorry, but you did. You may not SEE it, but I am sure that others… including the angels... saw it. But you don’t have to take MY word for it. You can ask those here… as well as ask the Holy Spirit (who can and will answer as to those here AND as to the angels). Just make sure you have made it up in YOUR heart to HEAR… when the Spirit responds.

My peace remains.

YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,

SA
JosephMalik

However, the Holy Spirit directs me to ask: where was the PROOF at the time ANY heard the voice of God or Christ?
Aguest,
Sure. I already provided one which you ignore but here is another: De 4:12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. In such cases we have scriptural verification. But you have no scriptural verification for your claim that Peter heard Gods voice. You put it this way; "He HEARD it. Directly from the Father" So where is your proof? Now this was a simple reference to the Fathers' words recorded in scripture that Peter heard all of his life and perceived which were spoken indirectly by Priests in the synagogue. Understanding our Lords words in this way impacts directly on how we understand other texts, or to put it another way, our inability to understand them. Both views are now here out in the open for the readers to see. Our Lord here is equating such words as from the Father and that is the point that I was making. He knew what Andrew said to Peter. That is why our Lord mentioned it when he said: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." The operative word here is revealed not said or voice. All you offer is distractions along with your accusations. But our Lord knew full well that it was not Andrews words but such words of the Father, words recorded in scripture that prompted Peters response.
You repeatedly claim in your response that you hear the holy spirit but you do not explain how? Do you hear a voice? Is this just your perception of the texts? Is it through dreams? Is there some physical or emotional manifestation of this holy spirit? Exactly how did such words come to be directed to me?
Joseph
AGuest

May you have peace!
I already provided one which you ignore but here is another: De 4:12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. In such cases we have scriptural verification.
You asked ME where was the proof of what I stated to you. I was directed to ask YOU where was the PROOF at the time ANY heard the voice of God or Christ. Your response does not answer this question. WHEN did "the Lord" speak out of the midst of the fire... and where was the proof... AT THE TIME? You refer to a writing that came into being some years AFTER the occurrence. We have it NOW, sure. And, again, perhaps my Lord will have something put in writing as to what I was directed to ask YOU. But there was NEVER anything IN WRITING at the very time of the occurrence.
But you have no scriptural verification for your claim that Peter heard Gods voice.
Well, okay, you are totally right: I have no "scriptural" verification. But, then, I have none for John the Baptist... or Saul of Tarsus... or James... either, do I? I DO have, however, what my Lord is recorded to have said to Peter:
"... flesh and bloodhath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Now, I believe my Lord: Peter heard it directly from his Father... which is in heaven. YOU, however, are the one that LACKS FAITH in this truth.
You put it this way; "He HEARD it. Directly from the Father" So where is your proof?
MY proof... is in what my Lord SAID. Just as John's PROOF [of what HE heard] of the Revelation.
Now this was a simple reference to the Fathers' words recorded in scripture that Peter heard all of his life and perceived which were spoken indirectly by Priests in the synagogue.
I'm sorry, but I am directed by the Holy Spirit to ask YOU: where is YOUR PROOF... that Peter heard the Father's words "all of his life" OR that he "perceived" them (rather than directly heard them)... spoken "indirectly by Priests in the synagogue." Where is this WRITTEN? Where does it say THIS... in the BIBLE... let alone in the "scriptures"?
Understanding our Lords words in this way impacts directly on how we understand other texts, or to put it another way, our inability to understand them.
I would agree, with one caveat: I would state it as, "MISunderstanding our Lords words in this way impacts directly on how we MISunderstand other texts, or to put it another way, our inability to understand them."
Both views are now here out in the open for the readers to see. Our Lord here is equating such words as from the Father and that is the point that I was making. He knew what Andrew said to Peter. That is why our Lord mentioned it when he said: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." The operative word here is revealed not said or voice.
The word of my Lord to you, dear Joe, is that you really should have looked up the word "revealed," before making your comment. I am to give you a head start, however. It comes from the Greek word "apokalypto" which means:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Then, I am to let you know that such word is the ROOT word for the word "Revelation" at Revelation 1:1... and ask you: did John "perceive" the Revelation... or what it TOLD to him? And, if your position is that it was told to him, was it by VOICES?
All you offer is distractions along with your accusations. But our Lord knew full well that it was not Andrews words but such words of the Father, words recorded in scripture that prompted Peters response.
There was absolutely NO intent to distract, dear Joe... but to awaken. And it was the words of the Father, yes. But not one that had been previously recorded... anywhere. However, I am to ask you: WHICH words... specifically... recorded in scripture... prompted Peter's response? What words told PETER... more so than they even told John [the Baptizer] that the man standing before him and questioning him was IN FACT... the Son of God?
You repeatedly claim in your response that you hear the holy spirit but you do not explain how?
I have explained how on this board more times than I can count. You did not ask me to do that here. One of the "gifts" of the Spirit given me as "discerning spirits." Some Bible versions say "discern" spirits, some say "distinguish spirits," some say "hear spirits." All apply, but the NLT states it best, I think:
"A spiritual gift is given to each of us as a means of helping the entire church. To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have." 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
As you can see, it is not up to me to question my gift, who I received it from... or why [me]. I just have to put faith in it... which is what I am doing here.
Do you hear a voice?
Yes. I hear a voice. Actually, I [can] hear MANY voices. The spirit realm does not sleep... so there is never silence there (except as indicated at Revelation 8:1, which event I have not experienced but I understand it to be a MAJOR event, as silence isn't something that happens there...). But I only listen to ONE (well, that's not entirely true. I have heard... and listened to... the voice of the MOST Holy One of Israel, which has occurred to me five times now... and that of the angel of the ark, Michael, when he was sent - I wanted to know what their wings looked like... and he came. They are NOT "bird" wings. They are the wings of seraphs: flying flesh-eating beings... which are NOT "birds of prey" not at all). I HEAR others... but they are of no consequence, so I don't listen. It's kind of like everyday life: you can hear, for example, the train going by at the same you hear someone honk a horn, at the same time you hear someone talking (to you and/or to someone else) at the same time as you hear... ummmm... the bell on the microwave go off... at the same time as you hear the phone ring... etc., etc., etc.
We have the capacity to hear more than one "spirit"... just as we have the capacity to hear more than one physical sound. It is the sound that you FOCUS on that is most important. I focus... on one. The voice of the Fine Shepherd, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. John 10:5
Is this just your perception of the texts?
Lordy, no! I don't even KNOW the texts... or what they mean... or what the writer meant or intended... or whether it is accurate or false...or NOTHING. I have to listen to what HE tells me about them including where they even ARE [in the Bible]. No. It is an actual voice. And I know whose voice it is. I didn't always in the beginning, but I certainly do, now. John 10:3-5, 27
Is it through dreams?
No, it isn't. My dreams for the past 12-13 years have been pretty benign (i.e., they have to do with things of this world, like most dreams). I haven't had a "bad" dream since 1998.
Is there some physical or emotional manifestation of this holy spirit?
No. It is all spiritual manifestation. But that does not mean it isn't REAL. It is VERY real. It just isn't "physical." Christ is a Spirit, dear one, and no longer flesh... with its blood, so when he speaks... and appears... it is as a spirit. And no, not as a "ghost," at least how that word is meant by most people.
Exactly how did such words come to be directed to me?
The REASON they came is as a warning, because, apparently, you really do not know what you are saying when you say Peter DIDN'T hear it directly from the MOST Holy One of Israel. It CAME to me in this way: the Holy Spirit, my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel said to me, "You must say to the man, "Joseph Malik," and speak to him these words that I am giving you..." and then he gave me the words. I do not lie to you, dear JMalik... not in the slightest. My ETERNAL life depends upon me NOT blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Such a thing has never come up into my heart or mind. Ever. And, yes, I scrutinize myself CONSTANTLY... as well as ask that One to SHOW me my weaknesses and errors... so that I can at least try to "cover" them... by asking HIM to cover them with his blood... which I drink daily... along with eating his flesh... daily. For man does not live by bread alone... but by the WORD... that came forth from God.
I bid you peace... and ears to hear... if you so wish them.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA, who, again (and this is me, now, and NOT the Holy Spirit) exhorts you to... please, PLEASE... think about what you have said: that Peter did NOT hear it from the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, directly. That is a VERY serious statement to make... and you are being given time to think about whether that is TRULY what you believe... and wish to say. I IMPLORE you to THINK and perhaps to just condescend to CONSIDER whether you might be in error.
JosephMalik

You refer to a writing that came into being some years AFTER the occurrence. We have it NOW, sure. And, again, perhaps my Lord will have something put in writing as to what I was directed to ask YOU.
Aguest,
Witnesses of an event to not need to have it in writing at the very time the event occurs. Does that mean that it did not happen or the event had no relevance until it is documented? Does something become true only when it is written down. Do the words of the Father only count when this is done? Do you have any idea how someone in the Jewish faith gets their information? We have been through all that already. What I asked from you is an answer to these questions that you failed to answer.
You repeatedly claim in your responses that you hear the holy spirit but you do not explain how exactly? If you hear a voice do you mean a voice literally or figuratively? Is this just your perception of the texts or does such voice or such voices explain them to you? Is this our loud or just in your mind. Or is it through dreams? Is there some physical or emotional manifestation of this holy spirit? Exactly how did such words come to be directed to me?
Joseph
AGuest

May you have peace!
Witnesses of an event to not need to have it in writing at the very time the event occurs.
I would agree! But, then, why are you demanding such of me? I "witnessed" the Spirit speaking to me... and I shared that with you. Now you want to see where it is written?
Does that mean that it did not happen or the event had no relevance until it is documented?
My point exactly! I know the answer is "no," but it does not appear that YOU do.
Does something become true only when it is written down.
MY answer would be, no.
Do the words of the Father only count when this is done?
Again, my answer would be, no. What is YOUR answer?
Do you have any idea how someone in the Jewish faith gets their information?
Now? Or prior to Christ? (Prior to Christ, it was through the Prophets... first directly, then with such being put down in writing later. Much later... unless it was prophesy, in which case it was stated... and written... much earlier)
We have been through all that already. What I asked from you is an answer to these questions that you failed to answer.
I absolutely answered EVERYTHING you propounded to me...
You repeatedly claim in your responses that you hear the holy spirit but you do not explain how exactly?
I absolutely DID explain. How did the others who've claimed to have heard such Spirit explain it... those in the NT... and those since that time? With their ears! But I TOLD you that...
If you hear a voice do you mean a voice literally or figuratively?
Literally, as I have said to you. (The word of my Lord is to ask you, did Philip hear his voice literally... or figuratively? John? James? Noah? Moses? Abraham? Samuel? Jeremiah?)
Is this just your perception of the texts or does such voice or such voices explain them to you?
The voice not only explains them... but very often reads them TO me. For example, "My Lord will say, no child. It does NOT say what (the WTBTS or others) say it does. Read it again." And because the WRONG word, emphasis, inflection or modulation can make a difference, he will say, "Listen, please, as I read to you. Follow my voice."
HOW is it possible that I hear? HE... OPENED... my ears. () Just like he helped the blind man see PHYSICALLY... he helped me hear SPIRITUALLY. Which is NOT abstract... or figurative... but literal. Just like, well, all the others that professed to hear him... which ones you have no problem believing now. Psalm 40:6
He was a physical man, then, and all of his 'miracles' pertained to the physical flesh. NOW, however... HE IS A SPIRIT... and his 'miracles' are OF the the SPIRIT... ABOUT the SPIRIT... TO the SPIRIT. So that, now, I am able to "test out" the words in most cases... which I do... by listening to HIM. The same as I do when "testing" the "inspired" expression. Again, one of my gifts is hearing spirits... and since Satan "keeps" transforming himself into an angel of light... I HAVE to rely on what the Spirit tells me... and NOT on my own understanding. Job 12:11; 34:3
Is this our loud
Is it our Lord, dear "Joseph Malik". Absolutely! I do NOT lie to you about such a thing!! Again, such a thing would be blasphemy AGAINST the Holy Spirit. And if I were a blasphemer in this way, I would NOT be directing you TO that Spirit! A house divided against itself... cannot stand.
or just in your mind.
Oh, you meant "out loud." Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends. Most often... it is like what you might refer to as "whispered" or in "low" tones." Sort of like on a frequency that animals can readily hear, but humans have trouble with. Somehow, he "tuned" my hearing... so I hear even to a degree that most cannot. BUT... he can do that for ANYONE, not just me. Matthew 10:27; Proverbs 8:7 (NWT)
But it is never in my mind (and for those who think perhaps I have some kind of "illness"... perhaps even a brain "toomah," FYI, I went for a COMPLETE physical yesterday (which is why I was away from the Board for so long... and ALL of my tests came back NORMAL. Not even a hiccup... excluding my blood glucose, which was a bit high, but I am a diabetic, so... And I am 50!). No, "Phenomenon" here... sorry...
Or is it through dreams?
Nope. I do realize that MOST Holy One of Israel DOES speak to some through dreams. But not me, for some reason. As I explained, my dreams are very normal... and always pretty good, actually...
Is there some physical or emotional manifestation of this holy spirit?
You know, I started to say, no. But on occasion there IS a "physical" manifestation. I mean, I can feel him... filling me... and when he rejoices... or groans (ooh, sometimes, Israel can REALLY exasperate him! LOLOLOLOLOL! But he is VERY patient... VERY mild, kind and loving... so the frustration lasts less than a moment). But I can also hear the other spirits... and they're not in me, so I don't feel anything with regard to them. I just hear them. I hear their disputes, their cheers, their questions (yes, they ask questions, too), when they are given directions... when they respond to such, etc.
Let's see... I've also seen him... as he is as a SPIRIT (which isn't at all what we've been told!)... as well as Michael... as well as many other spirits. I have seen the Ark of the Covenant, as it was originally forged (eathing man doesn't know the HALF of its splendor!)... the cherubs that covered it (now THAT was something spectacular to see - Michael and Satan; now only Michael)... I have been into the MOST Holy, as far as the pond of "water" and seven "spirits/fires" before the throne. I've seen my Lord's throne and him on it. I saw the "throwing down of the seed." I have seen the world of the dead. Ummmm... a good deal of what Ezekiel and John saw... Oh! Once I was taken to the wilderness at Sinai... at the time Israel left Egypt... and then, I could see, hear, and SMELL (and it was strong, let me tell you!)... I was taken up to a high mountain and saw the Spirit leave the temple and enter into my Lord... which is how I came to understand the 'temple'.... and much, much more!
When they appear... and they do appear, albeit infrequently... they do appear AS spirits. I mean, there is not, like, a man [of flesh with its blood], standing before me. But there is a person... a "being." For example, when Michael came, I came to see (1) what their wings are like (NOT like feathered birds AT ALL... but more like, well, gargoyle is the word that comes to mind); and (2) what their hair is like. It IS white... and like "wool"... but not like wool still on the sheep. It is like wool that has been sheared, cleaned, and "carded" (combed out). So it is LONG... but crinkly. Like an older person's long white hair... but very (very!) thick. No, not thick. Course. So, that whole "Jesus is black; look at his hair" thing is inaccurate.
I mean, I could go on... but I just can't type that much here and now. My hands already hurt just responding to the things I have.
Exactly how did such words come to be directed to me?
I started to write, "As I told you: my Lord spoke to me... and told me to speak to you." But now, I am to refer you to Malachi 3:16 and say to you that that is the answer to your question. (Personally, and this is all me "speaking," I believe he DID this because he knows you are SINCERE... but proceeding according to an INACCURATE knowledge of him... and of the MOST Holy One of Israel. My perception (because he didn't explain himself to me - who am I that he should?)... is that he is trying to get you to THINK... before you TRULY blaspheme... by saying God's DIDN'T use His spirit to do something. He did. MY job is only to give the message. If I don't give it... I could be held responsible for YOUR blood. No thanks. I have enough what with trying to walk right in regards to my OWN. So, I shared what I was given. Whether you hear or refrain.
BUT... the word of the Holy Spirit, my Lord and Master, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... is that you don't have to take MY word for ANY of this. You can ask HIM... for yourself. The Bible that you put YOUR faith in has already told you that.
Again, I bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
JosephMalik

My perception (because he didn't explain himself to me - who am I that he should?)... is that he is trying to get you to THINK... before you TRULY blaspheme... by saying God's DIDN'T use His spirit to do something.
Aguest,
The answer to something like that will come later. After all: our Lord said: Matt. 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
I am not critical of the texts the way you are. And I am not dependent upon voices speaking to me the way you are. And I do not say things like: the Holy Spirit, who is the Son of God and Holy One of Israel? Why? Because such things are not truth. All this was discussed in the link provided to you. So it seems that we both have done what we think is best for each other.
Joseph
AGuest

I do not say things like: the Holy Spirit, who is the Son of God and Holy One of Israel? Why? Because such things are not truth.
Okay, JoeM, perhaps you're right: maybe we should be done here. Before I go, may I ask you: what did [Paul] mean by what he wrote 2 Corinthians 3:17?
I eagerly await your response. In the meantime...
I bid you peace!
YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,
SA
JosephMalik

What did Paul mean here? There is more to it than just verse 17. Paul described the situation of the Jewish Christians in Corinth that still kept the Law and were blinded by it like a veil over their eyes with:
2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Now here is Paul’s explanation as to what happens when this veil is taken away and abolished.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
That spirit, the spirit of the Lord is renewed vision, liberty a new life for such believers apart from such Law. That is what the Lord did for them. It is like they are born again without the veil, without the Law of slavery that prevented them from having a real hope of everlasting life. The abuse of this word spirit, or wind which it represents and making it out to be a person or something unearthly that inhabits human beings is sick. Like demon possession imbedded in our theology. Such thinking has no place in the faith. Paul did not do this as he went on to say:
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
These Jewish Corinthians to which Paul wrote here should now have an open face that reflects the glory of the Lord, even the spirit of the Lord though their ministry. The word of God such as the writings of Moses he described would no longer be handled deceitfully the way such Law keepers were still doing but by the manifestation so such truth that Christ died for us and freed us from this Law "commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God." And of course the consequences that now visit those that do not believe. We can say then that: the light of the glorious gospel of Christ is that spirit.
Joseph
AGuest

May you have peace!
here is Paul’s explanation as to what happens when this veil is taken away and abolished. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. That spirit, the spirit of the Lord is renewed vision, liberty a new life for such believers apart from such Law. That is what the Lord did for them.
Wow. First, it's YOUR explanation... and it's most probably THE most benign explanation I've ever read.
It is like they are born again without the veil, without the Law of slavery that prevented them from having a real hope of everlasting life.
The Law is not the veil, dear Joe. It is READING the Law... trying to ADHERE to it... to LIVE by it... and require OTHERS to live by it... that is the veil. Here, take a look:
"Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"
What this is saying is that we... who speak by means of the SPIRIT... are NOT doing as Moses did. HE had a veil over his face and because of this Israel could NOT see "the END" of the Law. That "end"... is Christ. Because of him... and by MEANS of him... the Law was done away with... because he FULFILLED it. But Israel could not SEE him, Christ... who is the IMAGE of God... and the GLORY of God... who was reflected in MOSES face... because Moses had a VEIL over his face.
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament;"
They couldn't SEE... because they weren't ALLOWED to... because THEY were taken into the OLD Covenant. Being under the OLD Covenant... they weren't ALLOWED to see the means by which such Covenant would come to its end: Christ. They couldn't see him... because the veil over Moses face prevented it. BUT...
"which [vail] is done away in Christ."
Self-explanatory. Or maybe not. Let's continue...
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
SOOooo, for those who put their faith in the Bible... there is a PART contained IN it... that puts a VEIL... over your HEART! The "old testament." But it does not have to be that way:
"Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."
Translation? "Look" at the Law... and you will have VEIL on your heart! But turn and LOOK at CHRIST... and the veil... IS REMOVED!
The abuse of this word spirit, or wind which it represents and making it out to be a person or something unearthly that inhabits human beings is sick. Like demon possession imbedded in our theology. Such thinking has no place in the faith.
Dear Joe, again, I am to warn you to take care. This word "spirit"... is the SAME word... "pneuma"... used at Matthew 1:18, 20; 3:11, 16; and 28:19... the verses YOU and others use to support the theory of a THIRD "person" in a triune god that makes up the "Trinity." Now, I agree that the Holy Spirit (Christ)... is NOT "holy spirit" (the life force, blood, and semen of God). But I don't think YOU or the writers of the Bible version YOU use... get that.
As to such "person" inhabiting human beings, it is NOT demon possession, as in BAD spirits. It IS a possession... by GOD'S spirit! I am to refer you to Romans 8:9-11 and Ephesians 2:19-21, which state:
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. "
And...
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation... of God ... through the Spirit."
That is WHY we are called "the TEMPLE of God." 1 Corinthians 3:16
Paul did not do this as he went on to say: 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Do you understand what this means? I don't think you do. What Paul was SAYING is that... when you turn AWAY from the Law... and turn TO Christ... so as to STOP looking at IT (the Law)... but instead look at HIM... once his spirit has come INTO you... you will SEE him... in YOU. As HE occupies your vessel... dwells IN you... your are CHANGED. You go from being the fleshly man that you are NOW... closer to the SPIRIT man that you will be when you put OFF flesh and put ON the spirit body... which is done... BY means of the Holy Spirit, Christ. He... and by means of him... GOD... dwell IN you... and thus you are changed into THEIR image... glory TO glory... while changing FROM Adham's image. Whose "likeness" WE were made in - Adham was made in God's image, not us; WE... were made in Adham's image, because WE were made AFTER he sinned. Thus:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
And that is EXACTLY what I am doing here... and have been doing since I was first sent: using GREAT "PLAINESS of speech" (verse 12)... and RENOUNCING THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DISHONESTY. It is the Spirit of God... which dwells IN me... THROUGH Christ... the HOLY Spirit... that directs me and TELLS me what things ARE untrue, dishonest, hidden... a LIE. And I share them with YOU.
not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
I have not been crafty, or deceitful. Not once. I handle the "word" that I receive FROM the Word... JUST SO. If you have read my posts, you would know this as a fact.
but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
I tell you what is TRUE... not what you want to hear. And I tell you to TEST it... ASK... find out for YOURSELF... so that YOUR conscience is not offended. I can commend myself TO your conscience... because I do not speak these things in my own name, but I openly confess to you WHO it is that speaks to ME; from WHOM I receive the things... the TRUTHS... that I share with you.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
And that is why the truths I share with you... are hidden. Why you... and others who believe as YOU do... that the BIBLE is the Word of God... cannot get these truths. It is because you CANNOT "receive" the Holy Spirit... because you read the OLD Covenant, yet, by means of believing that the Bible is the Word of God... versus CHRIST... who the BIBLE says is the Word of God. You have NOT yet "turned" to Christ... but still keep your gaze on the OLD Law. Why? Because... your mind has been blinded... so that the glorious GOOD news... ABOUT CHRIST... OF CHRIST... the IMAGE of God... the One to whom you MUST look... in order to SEE God... CANNOT SHINE THROUGH. There is a VEIL... between YOU and HIM. It is "the reading... of MOSES."
At the time Paul wrote this... the NT had NOT yet been written! So, the only "scriptures" he COULD have been referring to... was the OLD Testament!
These Jewish Corinthians to which Paul wrote here should now have an open face that reflects the glory of the Lord, even the spirit of the Lord though their ministry.
Through their MINISTRY??? WHAT "ministry"??? There was no ministry, not in the way you use the word, other than that of the 12, Paul, and those who went with them. The members of the congregation, to whom Paul wrote... weren't "sent" out. If they WERE... they would ALL have been APOSTLES (sent ones). THEY... were the ones PAUL, an apostle "to the nations" was sent TO. (BTW - "ministry" means service. They MINISTERED... to the widows, orphans, sick, hungry, and poor among them.)
The word of God such as the writings of Moses he described would no longer be handled deceitfully the way such Law keepers were still doing but by the manifestation so such truth that Christ died for us and freed us from this Law "commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God."
And now, I understand: you are lost. TRULY lost. You do not "see" at all. You have NO idea what this is all about. And that is why you cannot hear. You have been misled... and are WAY out there. NOTHING of what you just wrote is true. Not one word of it. It is merely the reconstitution of the rhetoric... and LIES... contrived by those YOU follow... those who wrote such things before you.
And of course the consequences that now visit those that do not believe. We can say then that: the light of the glorious gospel of Christ is that spirit.
Yet, that is NOT what Paul wrote, at all. He did NOT write, "[the light of the glorious gospel of] Christ is that spirit." YOU are saying that. HE said: "Christ is that Spirit." Period. No more... no less.
Nevermind, dear JoeM. It is not me who must call you, but my Lord. I simply bid you peace... and ears to hear... IF you so wish them (which I seriously doubt, given your attempt to explain this verse. But I am not your judge... and the MOST Holy One of Israel is merciful. Perhaps He will grant them to you, yet).
A slave of Christ,
SA
JosephMalik

But I am not your judge..
Aguest,
Of course not and now the readers can decide which view more correctly explains the text themselves.
Joseph

2 Questions For AGuest : )))

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