by UnDisfellowshipped 124 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The Trinity is an unfathomable, and yet unmistakable doctrine in Scripture.
I completey agree with you, except that it's very fathomable. It is very reasonable to have faith in the Trinity doctrine. It's logical though can be difficult to grasp in some respects, but it was figured out a long time ago. It all starts with proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God.
Jonathan dough,
Is it scriptural, that is what everyone wants to know? How were words like God used in the texts back then? We are the disciples of our day and responsible for what we teach others. Even in the first century not everything that was taught was correct and the Apostles had to correct them, a process that took years. We see this in Acts and nearly all of Paul's letters as well as Peter's and John's writings. So what people did after they died cannot be trusted more than what such Apostles and disciples already made known to us. That is why I studied the matter for myself. I posted this at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm and while it is not a complete work it resolved many of the difficulties that I and others have found with such thinking. It also discusses many of the things that you have brought out here. Everyone should still do their own work but at least here they get an alternate view.
Joseph
Wobble asked:
If the trinity is so plain, why only two thrones, God and Jesus side by side, as seen by Stephen and the writer of Revelation, why no throne for the H.S ?
love
Wobble
My reply:
Where is the Holy Spirit?
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple 8 of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple 8 of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
IssacAustin,
And that means what? Is their something non-human dwelling in us instead of occupying a throne? Are we possessed by a good spirit of some sort? Just what did Paul mean here? The word spirit means so many things in scripture that this could have a multitude of meanings but which one do you mean here? Is it simply that we should have the mindset of God or at least a mindset derived from scripture that came from God. The word spirit applies in such ways you know and this was demonstrated in my document.
In the case of 1Cor 3:16 I found that Paul was talking about our work, our ministry like this: 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Work like this is what Paul is calling the Spirit of God. Our work should reflect that and we be rewarded for good work that stands this test of fire. That is what such discussions here tend to do.
In the case of 1Cor 6.19 I found that Paul was talking about our morality and that we should be together as moral disciples in Christ like this: 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. The word Spirit used in this way deals with our holyness or lack of it as Paul discussed here. Using the word in this way for all disciples good or bad was an effort to correct them. We are all joined together as one Spirit like it or not and such lack of morality is sinful in the faith. Perhaps our JW training causes some to think that only one Christian religion is right or has the truth and they rally around it or their denomination. I see it more like all Christian religions good or bad represent the faith and the bad things done in them are sinful and not in keeping with being joined to the Lord. Our Lord will sort all this out when he returns but for now we are responsible as individuals as we are not our own seeing how Christ bought us with a price and collectively we are understood to be the body of Christ.
Joseph
I am not a Trinitarian, at least I don't believe that understanding or agreeing with the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation.
However, I do believe that, for Christians, Jesus is God as in God the Son, as in ,all that God is, Jesus is:
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know a my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
That is why I studied the matter for myself. I posted this at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm and while it is not a complete work it resolved many of the difficulties that I and others have found with such thinking.
I'm not sure I understand your point; I don't think we disagree, but one can't separate logic from Scripture. I also studied this issue exhaustively and compiled a 60,000 word treatise which you can find here:
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html
The Trinity doctrine is logical, and scriptural, even if it requires some faith to believe. It is reasonable to believe in the Trinity.
I am not a Trinitarian, at least I don't believe that understanding or agreeing with the trinity doctrine is needed for salvation.
But can one gain salvation if one believes that Jesus was nothing more or less than a man, like the JWs teach?
Wobble asked:
If the trinity is so plain, why only two thrones, God and Jesus side by side, as seen by Stephen and the writer of Revelation, why no throne for the H.S ?
Which two thrones is Wobble referring to? Can he cite chapter and verse? I thought they sat on one throne, not two.
This question illustrates a complete lack of undertanding of the God-man Jesus, and that the risen Christ did not cease being human in heaven. Basic Christian theology teaches that the creature Jesus, the created humanity, the man of the God-man equation, is not God Almighty. In that sense He is distinct visually, down here as well as up there. Therefore the Lamb can be seen as standing beside God. I think there is too much being read into the visions of Revelation. After all, God is spirit and invisible. You have a spirit, but just because you can't see it doesn't mean it does not exist. "Father" ususally is a synonym for the triune God, not the first Person of the Trinity. So the God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity teaches that the Lord (Jehovah NWT) is the Spirit, so the Spirit is on the throne, even if you can't see it. Don't Read Revelations too literally. And don't wag the dog by the tail. There is a tremendous amount of proof supporting the Trinity. Read and study it ALL. Don't just stop at the first bump in the road because it seems difficult to understand.
Are the basic ideas of immanent Trinity and Economic Trinity too difficult for people to grasp? I routinely post information on that topic and not once in the last year has anyone mentioned these two concepts. This is fundamental to the Trinity doctrine, and explains SO MUCH. But most of you just spin around in circles and fall for that same old JW claptrap of "Jesus can't be (or is) God" without understanding what that Trinitarian phrase means.
I'll post an explanation again that should hopefully move this discussion where it belongs.
At the outset it is crucial to understand two key concepts. You must distinguish between immanent Trinity (theological Trinity) and economic trinity, and understand how they relate to each other. This is not difficult. The Jehovah's Witnesses fail to separate them and erroneously combine the two concepts. This error lies at the root of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ harsh attacks on the Trinity and allows them to get away with distorting Trinitarian teaching. It is the means by which they are able to convince many people, who otherwise would know better, that the Trinity is utterly illogical and false when it is true and reasonable, even if certain aspects are grounded upon a measure of faith.
Immanent (theological) Trinitarianism, refers to the essence of God the Almighty, his hypostatic three-fold nature and his absolute and perfect being, before creation. It deals with the “infinite, blessed communion of the divine Persons among themselves, without reference to creation,” (B. Brobrinskoy, The Mystery of the Trinity [New York, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1999], 2, 3) (Mystery). It is the triune God as he is in himself (J. Moltmann, The Trinity and the Kingdom of God [Munich, Germany, SCM Press, Ltd., 1981], 151) (Trinity and the Kingdom).
This should not be confused with economic Trinitarianism (God for us), the concerted activity of the three Persons in creation as they “maintain and restore the created world to a state of well-being and communion with God” (ibid., 2). “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987], 54) (Encyclopedia of Religion). “It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit” (ibid., 54). It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation (Trinity and the Kingdom, 151).
Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God (The New Catholic Encyclopedia [Washington D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1967], 943) (Catholic Encyclopedia) and not part of the immanent Trinity. But that is precisely where the Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly inject him resulting in a great deal of unnecessary confusion.
They argue, to take one illustration, that Jesus could not be God yet be with God; and he could not be the Father whom he prayed to (Should You Believe in the Trinity? [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989; http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm], Chapter 7) (Should You Believe). But this is a classic example of the Jehovah’s Witnesses mixing apples and oranges. The man of the God-man Jesus, the created humanity who was not God (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943), could rightfully pray to God the Father and did regard himself as inferior; this He performed in the context of economic Trinity.
The idea that the preexistent Word (God the Son) was with God stems from John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.
Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.
If you keep this distinction in mind you will be in a much better position to navigate the Jehovah's Witnesses’ maze of misleading tactics and come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.
Jonathan Dough, check your pm pls.
