Jonathan Dough, check your pm pls.
How do I do that?
Lets Debate the Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped 124 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
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isaacaustin
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PSacramento
JD,
I am not sure if one cna be "saved" if they believe that Jesus was simply a man of simple an archangel.
The Wt doctrine states that Jesus was the Son of God and that he is "subservient" to God and that Jesus is NOT God and to THAT part they are correct from a certain point of view, but the issue with the WT doctrine is their belief that jesus was the archangel Michael, this is NO WHERE stated plainly and negates all of the first chapter of Hebrews and most of the Gospel of John.
Salvation is based ( for a christian) on the belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he died for Us, that he was ressurected and is ruling at the side of God, that Jesus is our Lord and saviour, that all has been given unto to him by God.
While in the GOJ Jesus does mention that "you will be called gods", he does that within the contxe of the tsoning accusations that the pharisees level at him, that he is making himself God ( or equal to God), Jesus's reply does NOT mean that he is simply "a god", but shows that there "outrage" is misplaced because the very book they follow ( the OT) has no issues in proclaiming others "gods".
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JosephMalik
I don't think we disagree, but one can't separate logic from Scripture. And in another post: Are the basic ideas of immanent Trinity and Economic Trinity too difficult for people to grasp?
Jonathan dough,
We do disagree as anyone considering our documents will grasp. I found no need for ideas such as immanent Trinity and Economic Trinity. No doubt then that I took a different approach. But those that look further into this subject will see all this for themselves. So it may turn out well for the faith that so much thought has become available to those seeking the truth. http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm
Joseph
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Deputy Dog
jonathan dough
Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God (The New Catholic Encyclopedia [Washington D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1967], 943) (Catholic Encyclopedia) and not part of the immanent Trinity. But that is precisely where the Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly inject him resulting in a great deal of unnecessary confusion.
I'm not a JW nor have I ever been. But I have a big problem with this, (if I understand you correctly). You offer no scripture to support this, in the face of scripture that says the human Jesus was and still is God.
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delivered
Mouthy -- Thanks for posting the article -- I didn't notice the author of it; however, your sharing it is appreciated. God Bless.
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wobble
Despite a lot of debate, it is the third person of the trinity I struggle with. Holy Spirit as part of Almighty God, no problem, as part of Jesus, who did and does, his fathers will, no problem.
As a third person, no name , not called a son, I have difficulty. Stephen saw God and Jesus at his right hand,no one else.
Please be patient with me, I was 58 years a Dub, the Holy Spirit was "God's active force" only , for all those years. I would appreciate scriptural proof that the Holy Spirit is the third "person" in the godhead. I know we are going to get into what do you mean by "person" etc. but you guys have said it should be plain ,even to the un-educated like me, but at present I am struggling with this.
Love
Wobble
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PSacramento
The HS is an "all ecompassing" force, it is always preasent where the Father and Son are.
It is NOT visable.
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jonathan dough
But I have a big problem with this, (if I understand you correctly). You offer no scripture to support this, in the face of scripture that says the human Jesus was and still is God.
You haven't read a word I wrote. 2000 years of Christian theology support immanent and economic Trinity. It is not some far-fetched novel idea. And you have displayed a complete inabilility to grasp the nature of the hypostatic union; the nature of the God-man Jesus. You should educate yourself before you draw your own conclusions, please. The information provided is rife with citations.
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jonathan dough
I found no need for ideas such as immanent Trinity and Economic Trinity.
You really should, Joseph. Until you understand it you will never get to where you think you are going. It is not just an idea. It is the very definition of God.
