What scholars?
Tertullian, Moltmann, Aquinas, .... quite a few, actually.
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
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Robdar
So Moses did not part the Red sea
Whatever Moses did, it probably wasn't at the Red Sea. Most Jews believe "Red Sea" was mistranslated. The "actual" crossing probably occurred at the Reed Sea.
It's a great story though and one that I love.
Jonathan, do you interpret television shows literally? Do you believe them? Do you put your faith in them?
Humans have been telling each other stories since the beginning of time. They are amusing and help to pass the time. Some stories have become archetypes and affect us still.
Main Entry: ar·che·type Pronunciation: \ ' är-ki- ? tip\ Function: noun Etymology: Latin archetypum, from Greek archetypon, from neuter of archetypos archetypal, from archein + typos type Date: 1545
1: the original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies :prototype; also: a perfect example
2:idea 1a
3: an inherited idea or mode of thought in the psychology of C. G. Jung that is derived from the experience of the race and is present in the unconscious of the individual— ar·che·typ·al \ ? är-ki- ' ti-p?l\ also ar·che·typ·i·cal \- ' ti-pi-k?l\ adjective
— ar·che·typ·al·ly \-p?-le\ also ar·che·typ·i·cal·ly \- ' ti-pi-k(?-)le\ adverb
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jonathan dough
The UN instituted the state of Israel; are you suggesting that christian ethics, not political will, created the state of Israel?
You're posing this as an either/or choice which it isn't. Political will is driven in large part by Christian ethics. And it was Christian ethics, regardless of which country, which played a large role in stopping Hitler's war machine. Christian blood was spilled to stop the Germans, and consequently liberate the Jews who otherwise would have been vanquished. Did Stalin and other non-Christians also assist? Of course, but let's not minimize the contribution of Judeo-Christian cultures in lifting the yoke off the Jews.
The U.N's creation, or role in the creation, of the state of Israel is a mere formality compared to the amount of economic and military aid the U.S. and other nations expend it keeping Israel on the map. We spend billions.
Which teachings of Jesus did they use to establish a democracy by depopulating a country? The one where he said my kingdom is not of this world? Or turn the other cheek? Tell me how christian ethics will deal with the nuclear threat from Iran; what principles of Jesus will prevail?
It's not clear which country you are talking about. The American Indians? Just because a country justifies its wrong behavior with the Bible doesn't mean they are following Christian principles or do it with God's approval. Like many, you co-mingle Scripture with the Christian label. I don't know "how christian ethics will deal with the nuclear threat from Iran; what principles of Jesus will prevail?" Maybe none. It is a bit too speculative.
The official position of the US, a secular country by definition, is to protect the largest democracy in the Mideast. I concede that in the last 8 years, the policy toward Israel (as opposed to worldwide jewry) has been reinforced by the fundamentalist christian beliefs of the far right.
I'm not sure what definition you are using but the Christian founders would disagree with you as to the nature of the country they founded. Most certainly they would not consider it merely secular, although it has unfortunately disintegrated into that.
Of course, like you, they also perpetuate the lie that the "Jews" killed Jesus, so maybe it is a wash in your eyes?
Now you're just being ignorant and are over-generalizing. You're also putting words in my mouth because I never said this.
Would you be so protective of Israel if it did not figure in end times chronology?
Definately, after the holocaust and what those poor people have had to endure at the hands of atheists, false Christians and God-hating satanists. Yes.
NO I do not believe divine intervention. But you are welcome to ask him to smite me; I will wait here to see what happens.
I would never ask Him to smite you or any one else. He'll deal with you in His own time.
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jonathan dough
So we simply cannot tell them they are no longer under the law covenant. No other covenant exists to them.
Sure we can. They are just wrong in believing it. They tell us the NT is nonsense and Jesus was not the Messiah.
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jonathan dough
God did NOT totally forsake them as one poster on this thread said he did and in fact we are dmonished as Christian believers to show humility when dealing with Natural Jews because God still has a plan for them. Read Romans chapter 11.
If you are implying that I said this you are mistaken because I specifically opened the possibility that some will be brought in as per Romans ch. 11, but it won't be by virtue of the Old Covenant.
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jonathan dough
Jonathan, do you interpret television shows literally? Do you believe them? Do you put your faith in them?
So is it the official Jewish position that Moses did not part the sea, call it red or reed. How about all of Moses' many miracles prior to the exodus? Was that all metaphor? The burning bush? The account of the flood? How about manna from heaven? God writing the ten commandments? The fall of Jericho? All of the OT miracles, please tell me, do they believe any of it at all? Even one? I just find that so hard to believe.
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Robdar
As for most of the Natural Jews today, they continue to live under law.
Lilly, I do not understand what you mean by the above.
Of the Jews in Israel, about 47% identify themselves as secular. A large percentage identify themselves as agnostic or athiest. These people are "natural" Jews born to a Jewish mother.
If you mean the orthodox jews, the most fundamental jews who adhere strickly to halakha (Jewish law), only about 6% live in Israel and 7% in the US.
Judaism has reformed itself. The Orthodox don't like it much but fundies don't like much of anything. It's my opinon that reform is the best thing to happen to Judaism.
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jonathan dough
Jeremiah was speaking of his own time to his own people. The context is the Babylonian Exile and the Jewish Exiles' wish to return. Through Jeremiah, God tells these people that it is his desire for them to return, but they must first seek him. The promises of a new covenant and a new heart are made for them, as they rebuild their relationship with him.
As much as I respect your work on 607, Doug, I think you are way, way off on this one. Left field. Jer 31:31-34 was NOT limited to that time, and to the extent that it might have, the primary, core, fundamental point of it is exactly as Lil said. It spoke of Christ and Christianity. I speak with a measure of experience and have done quite a bit of research on this topic.
I don't want to clog up this post with material I wrote on covenants, especially the New Covenant, because it can bore you do death, but I'll give the link. You can't look at the New Covenant in isolation, either, but must also examine the Old, Abrahamic and Davidic covenants to get your bearings.
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Robdar
So is it the official Jewish position that Moses did not part the sea, call it red or reed. How about all of Moses' many miracles prior to the exodus? Was that all metaphor? The burning bush? The account of the flood? How about manna from heaven? God writing the ten commandments? The fall of Jericho? All of the OT miracles, please tell me, do they believe any of it at all? Even one? I just find that so hard to believe.
Jonathan, why do you find it hard to believe? Do you think I am lying to you? Do you think I do not know what is going on in the modern Jewish community?
Jews are free to believe what they want. We have a saying: If you have 3 jews in a room, you will also have 5 opinions.
As I stated before, the Jewish stories are meant to be reflected upon. Jews have been reflecting and arguing over the stories for over 5000 years now. We are still seeking, still searching, still doing the best we can.
These stories have empowered us. The Abrahamic tribes have come a long way. Our stories helped us to remain alive.
We have weekly meetings at one of the temples where we discuss scripture and apply it to the modern world. All opinions are greeted with an open mind. Many times you leave the meeting with a fresh perspective and a different way to apply the scripture to your own life.
Belive what you want; but remember, it is really only your opinion.
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Satanus
'Jonathan, do you interpret television shows literally? Do you believe them? Do you put your faith in them?
Humans have been telling each other stories since the beginning of time. They are amusing and help to pass the time. Some stories have become archetypes and affect us still. 'So it seems. An interesting addendum to that observation, The stories about which we are discussing were written by jews. Hollywood movies are produced also mainly by jews. What do you call that, a parallel? The way it seems though, things haven't changed much. Anyhow jonathan, it's time to pull yourself out of the movie and into real life.
S