Does Eccl. 9:5 Mean What the WT Says It Does?
by Perry 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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hamsterbait
"Neither do they have wages." This gives a clue to what is being said.
The dead have no contact with the living, and the living have none with them, hence they get no wages. it is talking of the complete separation from earthly life.
I would be interested to hear from Leo on this one - as I am not sure if the word "conscious" used by the WT is the same as "know" as used in other Bibles.
Is it saying the dead know nothing of what is going on in our world, or that they are in oblivion??
HB
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Chalam
Excellent reading for all JWs and exJWs alike :)
Stephen
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Alwayshere
KJ BIBLE SAYS "THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD." verse 6 says "neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
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jeremiahjs
It means the dead are dead; in the same mental state as before you were born; except awaiting resurrection instead of waiting for mom and dad to spread their seed.(:
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White Dove
To know is gnosis. What is conscious in Greek? I thought gnosis is the original word for that scripture that is translated badly into conscious. Or, am I way off here?
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Perry
I think the author summed it up well here:
The key to understanding Ecclesiastes is the phrase "under the sun" which occurs 29 times in the book. This important phrase means as things appear from an earthly perspective. The author, for the most part, does not concern himself with the realities of the afterlife. His book is not meant to be a dogmatic statement on the state of the dead. The author tells us as much when he writes, "Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward..." (3:21).
This book is a commentary on the pointlessness of our physical existence apart from God. Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of the rest of the Bible. The rest of the Bible plainly teaches that the dead are conscious (see I Sam. 28:12-20; Is. 14:9ff.; Lk. 16:19-31, 20:38, 23:40-43; Rom. 14:9; II Cor. 5:6-9; Phil. 1:22-25; I Thes. 5:10; Heb. 12:1; I Pt. 3:18-19, 4:6; Rev. 6:9-10).
Clearly, disembodied souls are conscious:
Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?The biblical definition of death is when your spirit is separated from your body.... as illustrated here:
1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
The WT definition of death is identical to that of an atheist. Death is the separation of your soul. It will go to either heaven or hell when you die. You will be conscious for eternity.
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Perry
White Dove, here's the Hebrew word For "know" in this case.
Lexicon: Strong's [know] 3045. [dy yada', yaw-dah'; a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, × could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, × prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), × will be, wist, wit, wot.
That scripture simply means that the dead can't see (know) what's going on "under the sun".
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lovelylil2
Perry, good comments.
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PSacramento
Ecclesiastes chapter 9 is the "equality" chapter, we all die, good and bad, we all in up in the same way, eventually and that is dead.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope b —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
This passage may also be addressing the issue of "talking with the dead" or hauntings, showing that once we are dead, we are dead and are aware of nothing.
The spirit and soul go back to God and that is what comes back to us on our ressurection.