by Perry 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Spirit/electricity (WT view) can't talk like they do in revelation.
The Wt tries to make a heresy fit as far as they can; and for the scriptures left over where they can't put the square peg in the round hole, they spiritualize those.
Adam became a living soul .... being joined as a triparte being with his body and spirit. When he died, he became a dead soul... but still conscious.
Mary said: "since when did Jesus use a 'false doctrine' to make a point? I asked an elder this once and I was given no answer."
I asked Butterflyleia the same question a couple days ago and I was also given no answer... ;)
1 Samuel 28 >>
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spaketo Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped withhis face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departedfrom thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host ofIsrael into the hand of the Philistines.
Hell is real.
Is not the OT "soul" nothing more (nor less) than "breath"?
That the child's "soul" returned - is that not just saying he started breathing again?
I'd have to go back and read up on what the old Judaic beliefs about the "soul" really was...
I find Ecc to be the most relevent, believable text in the Bible.
Well, look at it this way....would you WANT to be conscious if you were dead?
Would you really care to know what is going on if you couldn't participate or do anything about it?
Wouldn't it be frustrating?
And if it were depressing to be dead and yet still witness events happening on the earth, there would be no xanax.
When I am dead, I don't want to know anything more. I want a rest. A long mindless rest.
If there is a resurrection, I don't think I would even be interested at this point in time. Not even if it was a paradise.
Good point Mary :)
Here's another question they cannot answer. Consider the list from the "cloud of witnesses" presented in Hebrews 11
Why is Abel dead but still speaks?
4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Why is Enoch's state? Does he speak also?
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
How can one witness unless one can speak?
Blessings,
Stephen
Here is a recent post of mine on the OT and early Jewish and Christian views on the afterlife:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/173215/2/Question-for-our-scholars#3209377
The thread also has some more info worth reading.
There's another scripture in the Old Testament that indicates a life after death.....when Saul goes to the Witch of Endor where she calls up Samuel. Even though the bible itself identifies the spirit as "Samuel", the WT refuses to acknowledge that it was in fact, the deceased Samuel and insists that it must have been a demon......
1 Samuel 28:13-15: "...But the king said to her: "Do not be afraid, but what did you see?" And the woman went on to say to Saul: "A god I saw coming up out of the earth." 14 At once he said to her: "What is his form?" to which she said: "It is an old man coming up, and he has himself covered with a sleeveless coat." At that Saul recognized that it was "Samuel," and he proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth and to prostrate himself. 15 And "Samuel" began to say to Saul: "Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?"
Here is what I said about the En-Dor story in the other thread:
[T]he story of Saul and the necromancer of En-Dor in 1 Samuel 28 ... only makes sense if the spirit was really Samuel. He speaks with the authority of a prophet of Yahweh (v. 16-17), as Yahweh's representative he explains to Saul the reason why Yahweh has not responded to his prayers (v. 18), and Samuel makes a true prophecy of Saul's imminent doom (v. 19). In no sense does the author qualify the references to Samuel. "Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words" (v. 20); the spirit that appeared was indeed Samuel for the author.
It is also worth noting quoting Josephus' version of the En-Dor story, which shows that he understood that the spirit was really Samuel:
"Saul asked through the prophets for an oracle from God concerning the battle and its outcome. But, as no response came from God, Saul was yet more afraid and his heart failed him, forseeing inevitable disaster since deity was no longer at his side. However, he gave orders to search out for him a woman among the mediums and those who call up the souls of those who had died (tón tethnékotón psukhas), that he might learn how matters would turn out for him. For this sort of medium brings forth the souls of the dead (tas tón nekrón psukhas) and through them foretells the future to those who inquire of them. And one of his servants told him that there was such a woman in the city Endor, but was known to nobody in the camp.... Having convinced her by his oaths to not be anxious, he directed her to bring up the soul of Samuel (tén Samouélou psukhén). The woman, ignorant of who Samuel was, summoned him from Hades (kalei touton ex Haidou). When he appeared, the woman beheld a venerable and godlike man (andra semnon kai theoprepé) and she was thrown into confusion and alarmed by the vision.... When Saul questioned why she was in a state of confusion, she said that she saw one coming up with a form similar to God (tó theó tén morphén homoion).... And the soul of Samuel asked him why he had disturbed him and forced him to be brought up (kinéseien autén kai anakhthénai poiéseien) and Saul replied in a lament that he was facing dire circumstances.... But seeing that Saul's change (metabolés) was now overdue, he said: 'It is pointless for you to wish to still learn from me (eti par' emou mathein), seeing that God has deserted you. But hear now that David must rule as king and be successful in war. You howver will lose both your rulership and your life, you who disobeyed God in the war against the Amalekites and did not keep his commands, just as I predicted to you while alive (proephéteusa soi kai zón). Know then that the people too will be subjected to the enemy, and that tomorrow you will be with me (aurion met' emou genésomenon) after falling in battle, along with your sons' " (Antiquitates, 6.328-334).
The essential problem that we grapple with as ex-witnesses is the definition of the word "death". It doesn't mean what we were taught that it means. So, when we hear "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" it simply means that the sinning soul will be separated from it's body of flesh, not destroyed or annilated. This agrees with "the wages of sin is death".
Sin is the cause of this unnatural separation.
