Does Eccl. 9:5 Mean What the WT Says It Does?

by Perry 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Frank75

  Perry:

  After 40 years in the JW's quoting that text of Eze 18:4, I would have to agree with you now, at least in principle. It would seem the expressions were not absolute in that passage, but rather somewhat conditional, since the following verses outline the path of a righteous person resulting in "He will positively keep living".

  After Years of proof texting 18:4 as the consummate argument that the soul "dies" I finally read the context.

  I am not qualified to duke it with people who consider themselves well versed in the whole soul issue, but suffice it to say there is little in the bible to prop up JW views when the context is brought into the picture. (as do most JW beliefs)

  Another example is the passage in Romans 6 that is referenced in the NWT. Vs 6 opines that "he who has died is acquitted of sin". However the context clearly shows that the death the author was discussing was entirely symbolic.

  Frank75
• 

  Frank75

  But back to your topic on Eccl 9

  All those years showing people these expressions out of context and then I read the verse about "never again having anything to do under the sun"!

  Well if as much literalness is applied to that part of the verse as JW's do with other statements, what happens to their "earthly paradise" and "raising of the dead" to live and "do" under the sun again?

  Just silly! I hope you lurkers take this stuff to heart.

  Frank75
• 

  Chalam

  Here's the clincher

  Mark 12:26-27 (English Standard Version)

  26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

  Here you go

  Matthew 17:3 (New International Version)

  3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

  And here

  Matthew 22:29-32 (New International Version)

  29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

  In the words of Jesus, the WT deny the scriptures and the power of God and are quite wrong.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  inbetween

  hm, interesting thoughts, I miss these open mind discussions, because every question shall be answered in the WT, and what does not make sense, it simply says: "Wait for Jah"

  However, back on topic, does the existence of an immortal soul make sense, when considering the resurections of jesus ?

  Were was the soul of Lazarus while his body was dead ?

  if in heaven, why did he have to come back, torn away from the nearness to God ?

  does not make sense in my book.
• 

  designs

  Humans have developed from their imagination views of an afterlife that range from sublime to gaudy.

  Jesus paraphrased Rabbi Rab who said 'There is no eating there, no drinking, no begetting children.....the righteous have halos in the radience of the Shechinah.'

  Maimonides chided the giddy folk ideas floating around- don't 'act like a school boy expecting nuts and sweets......celestial pleasures cannot be understood by humans anymore than color by the blind.' Gan Eden, he taught, would be on earth when the Redemption occured. True blessedness would come as war, hatred, and injustice were purged from human society.

  As the Talmud relates- 'the gatekeeper to paradise slams the door in Alexander the Greats face.......only the pomegranate survives! Do good.

  .....ya gotta love a good story.
• 

  Perry

  Thanks for bringing up Romans 6 Frank. It is really shameless how the JW use this scripture to nullify the work that Christ did on the cross.

  NWT

  4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.

  In order to understand these passages, a person must understand the atonement of Jesus dying in our place. Galatians 2: 20 says:

  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

  Notice how when a person is born again something in man dies and Someone replaces it. The born again believer is totally unique. A brand new, never-before-seen creature in the universe made its appearance with the first born again believer. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature"

  So when a persons places his trust in Jesus Christ and no other, according to the legal stipulations born out in the New Covenant, (which JW's personally reject at each Memorial) that person receives Something inside of him that cannot sin, the Spirit of God. The flesh can still sin, but we are freed from the overpowering vice-grip of sin. I can personally testify that it is a very welcome release. The KJV calls this "freed from sin".

  The NWT uses the term "acquitted" because of it's legal connotations to promote the idea that a person can atone for their own sin simply by dying. Also notice the addition of the word [His] sin, instead of the generic "Sin".

  Of course this is a ridiculous heretical teaching because if true, Christ died for nothing.

  We must never forget to bring up Hebrews 9: 27 when talking to a witness:

  ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

  KJV

  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
  5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
  6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
  9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
  11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
• 

  hamsterbait

  WHY does the Jewish law say to kill people who "speak with the dead" or "conjure up the dead"?

  Doesnt this prove that the ancient jews believed the dead were in another location and could be contacted?

  If YHWH knew that the dead cannot be contacted, why didnt he make this clear at the time?

  HB
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  Mary

  Thank you for your post Leolaia.....excellent read. One question I have though is why does Deuteronomy 18:12 state that anyone "who consults the dead" is detestable to God?
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  Leolaia

  The passage makes it quite clear that magic and necromancy were among the traditional religious practices of Canaan that monolatrous Yahwism wanted to eliminate (v. 9). Deuteronomistic legislation likewise abolished the many public sanctuaries throughout the land (which were used by a variety of cults alongside Yahwism); only a single Temple in Jerusalem was recognized as the legitimate sanctuary. The dead were consulted in popular religion because they were believed to possess special prophetic insight and healing power (cf. the etymology of rephaim, "healers"), on account of their divine status (cf. the story in 1 Samuel 28 in which the spirits of the dead are called "gods"). The kind of Yahwism that Deuteronomy represents recognizes only the prophets as legitimate prognosticators, with Yahweh alone being the source of prophecy. Consulting the dead meant that one resorted to a rival source of information about the future. It was also believed to be a hazardous activity, as it involved disturbing the rest of the dead. The story of Saul is interesting because the dead person he sought to consult was in fact a prophet of Yahweh; yet the practice was still banned by the Deuteronomistic legislation and Saul knew that he was doing wrong, as did the women who was very relunctant and had to be tricked before she would go through with the seance.
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  Leolaia

  Doesnt this prove that the ancient jews believed the dead were in another location and could be contacted?

  As mentioned in the other thread, the OT frequently refers to one's nephesh (life, soul) descending to Sheol where the dead person is gathered with his ancestors, or with the hope of being raised up to Yahweh himself. This passage is one of the clearest allusions to this concept:

  Psalm 49:14-19: "Like sheep they are destined for Sheol (shty l-sh'wl) and Death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in Sheol (tsyrm l-blwt sh'wl) far from their princely mansions. But God will redeem my nephesh from Sheol (ypdh npshy m-yd sh'wl) and he will surely take me to himself. Do not be overawed when a man grows rich, when the splendor of his house increases; for he will take nothing with him (l' yqh h-kl) when he dies, his splendor will not descend with him (l' yrd 'chryw). Though while he lived he blessed his nephesh (npshw ybrk) and men praise you when you prosper, he will go to his ancestors' generation (tbw' `d-dwr 'bwtyw) who shall never see the light (l' yr'w 'wr)".

  The dead here descend to Sheol to be with their ancestors. A similar expression is used in 1 Kings 2:10, 11:43, 13:22, 14:31, 15:8, etc. in the case of the Israelite and Judean kings. Abraham is told in Genesis 15:15 that "you shall go to your ancestors in peace (tbw' 'l-'btyk b-shlwm) and be buried at a good old age", and Jacob looks forward to "resting with my ancestors (shkbty `m-'bty)" in 47:30. As for the Israelites who had been delivered from Egypt, "that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors (kl h-dwr n'spw 'l-'bwtyw)" before the Israelites entered Canaan (Judges 2:10). The psalmist however wishes to have a different fate, to be taken from Sheol to be with Yahweh himself. This hope is rather close to that in 1 Samuel 25:29: "Even though someone is pursuing you to take your nephesh, the nephesh of my master will be bound securely in the bundle of the living (npsh 'dny tsrwrh b-tsrwr h-chyym) with Yahweh your god". Jewish epitaphs in the later period frequently alluded to this verse, such as the following inscription: "May his spirit have eternal life (nshmtw l-chyy `wlm), may his nephesh rest in the bundle of the living (tnwt npshw b-tsrwr h-chyym)". Notice the parallelism between nephesh and the spirit of the dead person.