by isaacaustin 84 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
ok, let me help you TheSheppard, look at verse 12- the entire multitude, look at verse 22- 'Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation'
Sorry dude, Jehovah does not have an organization that he solely works thru, that ended when the Jesus death opened up the way for all.
I will post these verses in the next2 posts right out of the New World Mistranslation, since it keeps getting cut off.
Acts 15:1-41
</form>1 And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
3 Accordingly, after being conducted partway by the congregation, these men continued on their way through both Phoe·ni´cia and Sa·mar´i·a, relating in detail the conversion of people of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brothers. 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”
6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”
12 At that the entire multitude became silent, and they began to listen to Bar´na·bas and Paul relate the many signs and portents that God did through them among the nations. 13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a
I will add a point, even IF it only included the apostles and older men, which the context of a couple of verses seems to rule out, this still would not be a closed session of a few old men. It says the apostles and older men- with no limitation of only some of the older men. How many do you think would make up this multitude? Is this how the decision-making process goes among the JWs?
But more to the original question asked TheSheppard, you replied in relation to my asking the basis for the GB's claim to being God's sole channel of communication of truth as follows:
You said: I think the answer to your question comes down to faith. First of all, you might not agree, but it is logical to have a governing body. Jehovah has always had representatives taking the lead in his theocratic government on earth. Acts 15 describes this arrangement for the first century Christian congregation. Acts 16:4,5 shows that the congregations followed the decrees that were decided by the apostles and elders from Jerusalem.
My reply: Logic? WHose logic? Man's? That of the people claiming to have this authority? Acts 15 and 16:4 and 5 are the ONLY instance of any such council. And that was in relation to a specific issue caused by the cong in Jeru. There is never again any sort of mention of this sort of council. Hebrews does say something that would actually rule against a governing body: Hebrews 8
10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.
11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’”
So the WT is doing exactly what Jehovah said his people will not do!
You said: Please allow me to quote from a 1990 watchtower regarding the governing body in the first century:
"While all anointed Christians collectively form God’s household, there is abundant evidence that Christ chose a small number of men out of the slave class to serve as a visible governing body. The early history of the congregation shows that the 12 apostles, including Matthias, were the foundation of the first-century governing body. Acts 1:20-26 provides us with an indication of this. In connection with a replacement for Judas Iscariot, reference is there made to “his office of oversight” and to “this ministry and apostleship.”"
My reply: Yet the GB says that apostolic succession is not a Bible teaching. So why are they claiming it here?
You said:
Now comes the role of the faithful and discreet slave who was assigned to be the master's steward, which included dispensing spiritual food to the individuals within the household of God. Witnesses have published that the modern day "official" appointment came to be in 1919.
My reply: And on what basis do you assert that this is a composite acting as a single slave who is to be identified as those considered to be 'annointed' JWs?
You said: Firstly, wether it is in 1919 or at another time, Luke 12:43, after describing the faithful Steward says "Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so!". So there would come a time when the master would arrive to inspect if the slave or house
My replies keep getting cut off...I ask you this though TheSheppard, the GB claims Jesus did not take kingly authority until 1914, he had to wait at his Father's right hand. My question to you- what was he doing while waiting at his Father's right hand?? After all, Psalms 110:1 does say:
‘The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” ’
Paul clears up and refutes this 1914 dogma:
1 Cor 15:25 & 26 “For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.”
Finally you quoted this from the God's Kingdom of 100 Yrs Has Approached:
"On arriving to inspect his slaves in 1918, therefore, whom did the Master, Jesus Christ, find giving to his body of attendants their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Well, by
My request was for you to prove this baseless assertion.
The MadJW stayed up late the other night playing World of Warcraft and was so noisy he woke up his mom at 3 am. For this, she put him on restriction so he will not be able to use the computer for a few more days. He assures us he will be back in full force to call us names and stuff.
I simply asked him to back up the WTs assertion of who the GB is. I got assertions by him. I again asked him to substantiate.
One request at a time, first let me attend to this one.
On verse 12, it does say "the entire multitude", but in the scriptures previous to that one, it shows that this "multitude" was the group composed of the apostles and the older men. I do concede that this group of men might not have been composed of just 11 members like the modern day governing body (I forget how many there are at this time), but also in this passage it doesn't specify how many were present so obviously the amount was not important enough for Jehovah to have had it included in the scriptures.
Verse 22 mentions the entire congregation, but again it is clearly referring to an event after the before mentioned meeting of the apostles and the older men. So onces the decision was taken by that governing body or if you like don't like that expression, that group of men taking the lead, then the whole congregation was involved in the appointment of the men that would deliver the letter to the rest of the congregations.
I'm pressed for time right now, but I will address your other question when I can. As a side note, my first post was cut off after posting and I didn't notice until now. I'm guessing there must be a character limit in the database table field.
Verse 22 mentions the entire congregation, but again it is clearly referring to an event after the before mentioned meeting of the apostles and the older men. So onces the decision was taken by that governing body or if you like don't like that expression, that group of men taking the lead, then the whole congregation was involved in the appointment of the men that would deliver the letter to the rest of the congregations.
There is nothing to indicate that it is two seperate events, but you can choose to see it that way.
Fact is, ACTS 15 seems to imply that Peter made a call and everyone followed it so it can be used just as much to justify a "Bishop" oriented heiarchy.
