Many who profess to be "Christians" worship idols of their own imagination. When those idols are compared to the God of the bible many people simply hang on to their idol, others reject God altogether, some embrace the God of the bible.
"Died-Again Christian" means never really alive."Autobiography of a Died-Again Christian"
by leavingwt 61 Replies latest jw friends
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leavingwt
"Died-Again Christian" means never really alive.
I've known a few conservative Christians who were in faiths that demanded this view. I understand their viewpoint. To them, Christianity is the only valid explanation of things. Therefore, logically, there are no other conceptual options.
Reminds me of this analogy:
So your friend is facing a divorce, and she says that she really has tried everything: talking, counseling, patience, understanding. And although a divorce will cause suffering, it’ll cause less pain in the long term than staying together. (I’m asking you to imagine this, but of course, most people hardly need to imagine this; anyone of a particular age has actually had this conversation and can remember what it’s like.) This friend of yours is a relatively recent addition to your social circle, so you weren’t really around for the whole story; you only have her word to go on. But her pain is obvious, and her stories don’t sound particularly far-fetched. What would you say?
The worst possible thing to say would probably be something like, “I bet you don’t understand marriage. In fact, I know for a fact that you’re just being selfish or lazy or ignorant. No one who was really married would ever want out.” At that point, you’ve stopped listening to the person you claim to be friends with, and are standing in judgment over her, and you’re assuming that, in the midst of her suffering, she’s self-deluded and actually lying to you, and you’re making this assessment without actually knowing any of the facts. That’s a textbook description of an a$$hole. Surely anyone can see that.and this
But it really is a bad argument. It says a couple of things. First it says that once you become a Christian you basically lose your freewill, because once you’re a Christian you no longer have the ability to change your mind. You can’t just say: “I no longer believe that.” or “I found new evidence for that.”
And – since Christians believe that freewill is really important – I don’t think using an argument that completely eradicates your freewill is really the best one to use.
Deputy,
If you exercise your free will and stop being a Christian, folks will say that you were never really a Christian. You'll never be able to convince them otherwise. It would likely annoy you at first.
-LWT
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startingover
That last post was excellent LeavingWT! Thanks for starting this thread.
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drwtsn32
If you exercise your free will and stop being a Christian, folks will say that you were never really a Christian. You'll never be able to convince them otherwise. It would likely annoy you at first.
Reminds me of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
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bohm
LWT: Those two analogies in your last post was very thought-provoking, i really want some good ammo against the 'hotel-california' argument (once you joined, you can never leave).
I found his phd, it is here: http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-03192004-135203/
You are right, he pretty much set out to disprove the existence of YAHWEH using 7 arguments. From the abstract:
Though not all seven of these devil’s advocate’s arguments may be equally devastating when viewed in isolation, in the form of a cumulative argumen against realism, they constitute seemingly irrefutable proof that Yahweh-as-depicted in the text does not exist. Consequently, realism collapses not only in Old Testament theology but also in any form of theism somehow related to, rooted in and/or dependent on realism in its discourse.
I think much of it is over my head, but some here might be interested.
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Deputy Dog
LWT
since Christians believe that freewill is really important
I don't know what "Christians" you're speaking about. I don't believe in "freewill", at least the way most people think of it anyway.
If you exercise your free will and stop being a Christian
I don't believe free will made me a Christian.
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leavingwt
Deputy,
since Christians believe that freewill is really important
The above words were by the author I linked to. I think we can assume that the author was referring to those not subscribing to a strict Calvinist (Double Predestination) worldview.
I don't believe free will made me a Christian.
I can appreciate this. My Presbyterian friends feel similarly. We may be stumbling over words, now. Perhaps I should have expressed myself like this:
"If Deputy Dog stops being a Christian, some Christians say that he was never really a Christian."
This statement does not speak to why/how you became a Christian. Nor does it tell us why you would have stopped being a Christian. What we do have is the testimony of many ex-Christians, in which they tell us that they chose to stop being Christians.
-LWT
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goldensky
Thank you, Bohm! Now we have the whole thesis thanks to you. I'm having my husband download it for me tomorrow. He'll go crazy when he realizes all the sheets of paper it's going to take! Ha, ha! From the few glimpses I've had so far, it looks pretty promising...
Thanks for this thread, Leavingwt!
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Deputy Dog
LWT
"Double Predestination"
While I know what most people mean by this term, it doesn't describe my beliefs. I believe in sovereign grace and t here is no duplicity about that.
"If Deputy Dog stops being a Christian, some Christians say that he was never really a Christian."
Deputy Dog is no more able to stop being a Christian, than his dog is able to become a cat. If his dog did become a cat, now that would be annoying.
What we do have is the testimony of many ex-Christians,
If I can convince myself that I am a bird to the point I start acting like one, then at some point I decide to stop acting like a bird, does that mean I was a real bird? Does that mean I'm now an ex-bird?
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frankiespeakin
DD,
If I can convince myself that I am a bird to the point I start acting like one, then at some point I decide to stop
acting like a bird, does that mean I was a real bird? Does that mean I'm now an ex-bird?
So are you saying that believing in Jesus Christ is the same or the equivalent in believing one is a bird??