My Wife is demanding that I stop coming to this board.

by garyneal 160 Replies latest social family

• 

  garyneal

  Black Sheep:

  It doesn't have to win hearts to be successful. It isn't about recruiting them into another cult, it is about extracting them from cults.

  Agreed but if you are coming across as an arrogant pompous a**hole to someone you are trying to extract, they will not listen to you. They will just tune you out and erect their wall or just argue back and try to overtalk you. I've seen this happen. As Lukewarm stated:

  At the very least, examining all sides will ensure she is making an informed choice to believe what the JW's teach.

  That is all I am trying to do with my wife and with anyone else who decides on this or any other 'cult.' Make it an informed choice and be tolerant and respectful of other people's choices. That's what I meant by winning hearts.

  JWs are given the impression that their beliefs are unassailable and that the leadership is honest. John is demonstrating to them that that is not the case.

  And I agree with what John is doing but if you do it in a way which causes someone to tune you out, how have you reached that person? Two people trying to out do one another is not going to accomplish anything and both people will come out bitter and thinking they are right. At least Nathan showed some tact when he stated, "Time for you to grow a pair." That makes people think.

  An old Lutheran took my father to pieces on the immortal soul when I was a kid. My father couldn't see it. He didn't comprehend that he had made a complete arse of himself in front of his son. He still doesn't understand it, but that old Dane demonstrated to me that my father's beliefs were not as defendable as he wanted me to believe.

  I'm very glad that this man had the courage to confront your father like that. Though you did not say, I'm willing to bet that he did it with tact too and wasn't trying to 'out yell' your father (if your father did indeed yell). I don't know exactly what happened in that exchange but I do know one thing about the witnesses is that when they feel they are cornered, they will come out in attack of you and your opinions. Keeping calm, respectful, and tactful shows everyone who is the bigger person and affects how they view the irrational one and his arguments.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Garyneal asked, "...does that win hearts?..."

  I'm with my friend JudgeRutherfraud on this. Simply stated, it is not our job to "win hearts." That's a JW concept.

  If a person is trapped beneath a fallen tree, the job of a rescuer is to SET THE CAPTIVE FREE, not set them free and tell them how to live their life henceforth.

  If a person has a disease, the job of a doctor is the TERMINATE THE DISEASE, not terminate the disease and tell them how to live their life henceforth.

  If your car isn't running, the job of a mechanic is to REPAIR THE MALFUNCTION, not repair the malfunction and tell them how to live their life henceforth.

  People are FREE when they are permitted to use their own minds, not when they substitute Zenu (the volcano god of the scientologists, as you probably know) in place of YHVH, the Israelite War God.

  You don't know JudgeRutherfraud - don't dare to sit in judgement of him or his methods. What might seem like brutal attack on the throat to you might be understood by someone else to be a life-saving tracheotomy performed on a person who can't breathe.

  If I was tactful on a previous comment, that was an oversight on my part. I'll be careful about that in the future.
• 

  Gregor

  Garyneal, Don't take it personal.

  Of course I don't know the individual circumstances, how could I? But GENERALLY speaking, in my opinion, most faders tend to shy away from the big confrontation way too long for their own good.

  Sincere best wishes in your situation.
• 

  ziddina

  When I was a kid being dragged along in Field service, guys like Judge RuthorFraud didn't impress me - they scared me... The ones I listened to were like the balding, middle-aged man in his [not very clean] T-shirt, with a beer belly, who looked me in the eye and said, "Those people are using you...!" He didn't say it loudly, or rudely. Just a soft, matter-of-fact statement. I was only 11 - 12?, but I practically grabbed his hand and begged him to explain further. By this time, the adult sister with me had gotten to the door and was giving him the 'evil eye'... He looked at me one more time, repeated it again, and closed the door.

  I never forgot that.

  On the other hand, some of the comments JudgeRutherFRAUD made are more revealing of his interior conflicts than his effectiveness with JWs... "I know I'm rude and nasty and many posters hate me..." This could be viewed as a means of bringing 'persecution' upon RutherFRAUD, which would be a repetition of the underlying behavior 'pattern' of JW beliefs, even if the actual BELIEF SYSTEM is no longer in place.

  Likewise with his other comment: "guess were I learned to be rude and nasty ? from these lovely jw's that your are eating dinner with..." In this statement, we see that RutherFRAUD is still repeating the behavior pattern of his time in the JW religion; he may be making the 'noises' that he's moved beyond the WTBTS' damage, but the underlying JW personality [as he perceived it and as it was imprinted upon him] is still there...

  He would be much more effective if he STOPPED ACTING LIKE A JW, even tho he's supposedly doing so in 'service' of getting people 'out'... It sounds like he's still "ACTING OUT"; hasn't finished unloading the JW programming yet...

  Zid
  
• 

  Black Sheep

  Agreed but if you are coming across as an arrogant pompous a**hole to someone you are trying to extract, they will not listen to you. They will just tune you out and erect their wall or just argue back and try to overtalk you.

  That happens if you don't know how to control the conversation. They will nearly always tune you out at some point. That is how they manage to remain in the cult. The object of the exercise should always be to get your point across before that happens.

  Sometimes you do have to get tough. They are trained to see that as being mean and nasty. They think they deserve respect. They think they have the moral high ground. To get the point across that that isn't the case. you need to know their doctrines, and how they arrive at them, better than they do, as well as knowing all of their tactics for getting themselves off the hook that work with 99% of the people they talk to, including you.

  Note that John was talking about 5 minute conversations, not an hour playing the cult's cunning Bible ping pong/subject dancing/psychological warfare games that they play with you. That is about all the time you get.

  Pick your subject and know it better than they do.

  Know what their response will be before they make it. 99% of responses are automated and drilled into them several times a year.

  Never let them change the subject. Keep asking yourself if they are answering the question you asked, or are they cunningly answering some closely related question. 99% of JW answers are actually distractions. Do not make the mistake of thinking you can get back to your question after you have finished discussing their distraction ...... EVER.

  Never change the subject.

  Know when to stop. When they lie about their cult's teachings/rules/activities, challenge them to show it to you from their literature. Make it clear that you do not believe they teach that. Suspend the conversation there. Walk away, if it is a stranger, give them a contact number/email addy so that they can contact you to show you this unbelievable doctrine in their magazine/whatever. If you have memorised what magazine contradicts them, write it down for them and tell them to go and read it for themselves. If they are contradicted on their official website, grab them by the ear and drag them to to the nearest computer and show them. Walk away.

  Cheers

  Chris
• 

  Black Sheep

  judge rutherFRAUD is johnny cip.

  He does have a very in-your-face approach. He was never baptised, so he can get away with tactics that drifters/DA/DF can't.

  Have a look at this series:

  kh blow out today

  kh blow out 1-5-03

  p.o ,co blow out 1-11-03

  study set with p.o. 1-18-03 at high NOON

  p.o. no show at high NOON !!!

  kh elder wipeout today!!

  jw field serv. wash out in the rain

  P.O ELDER AMD M.S GET A RETURN VISIT TODAY

  today i hit pay dirt with 2 jw 's

  Cheers

  Chris
• 

  minimus

  Here'sssss Johnny.....He's baaaaaackkkkk!
• 

  moshe

  Hi Johnny! He knows that JW's will usually blow off "nice" people- they don't even listen to what they say- You have to reach down and grab them by their cajones ( figuratively speaking) to get them to focus on what you are saying. I remember a lady at the door who got my attention by asking me , if I was happy being a JW- I said yes- but I hesitated- she knew better and told me in a sharp voice, like a teacher scolding a lying pupil, " you need to stop lying to yourself!" . I believe that forceful reply was the one that got me to start thinking about leaving the KH.
• 

  JoJoJones

  I think it is entirely up to you if you come here or not. You're an individual, and you need to be true to yourself. I hope you keep coming back and sharing, and I hope this site is very helpful to you and that you feel very supported here. Take care.
• 

  ziddina

  "He was never baptised, so he can get away with tactics that drifters/DA/DF can't..."

  I think I'll carry this over to another thread. Wish there was a category titled "Psychological damages to JWs, ex-JWs, and those who have studied but were never baptised..."

  Zid