If God Truly Cared About People Wouldn't He DO SOMETHING By Now? (page 25)

minimus

The problem in this debate is when people fluffed off the responsiblity and ability of God and simply made the debate about people's not God's actions. I'm content that we kept the thread on track. Thank you.

gubberningbody

I think people who think they understand why there is suffering in the world are making it both more and less complicated that it is.

More complicated because the truth is that suffering exists because we exist.

Less complicated for not realizing that any moral argument via the Bible or any other text merely removes the responsibility for making a defense of right and wrong from self to someone (the imagined invisible fiend) or something else tangible, such as a text.

I can't argue with your invisible friend.

I can argue if you actually put forth a coherent argument.

This argument will recognize as did Abraham, that the truth IS your own already as regards moral judgment

Abraham had in his own mind and heart a conception of morality and justice and said to Jehovah:

"Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?"

In doing this he showed that he knew that he owned the truth with regard to right and wrong and if Jehovah didn't measure up to HIS standards then NO, the Judge of all the earth was NOT going to do what is right.

Abraham never abdicated his responsibility for making moral judgments.

Perhaps THIS is why he was spoken of as "God's friend" by James.

I have yet to run into any religious person who will be willing to say to the Almighty..."What the hey!!!?", but I have run into many atheists and agnostics who have. I have to say that the God represented by the Bible writers is inaccurate and flawed or that this "friend" of theirs was deeply and terribly flawed as regards "its" moral core.

minimus

Interesting thoughts, GB.

AK - Jeff

I am somewhat drained from this discussion.

Part of the issue could be our insistence [those who believe in God] on putting God in a box of our own making. Some eastern cultures don't view God as a personal being in the sense that Christians and their friendly cousins Moslems do. Native Americans did not view God in the way that Christians do. I tend to believe that both these cultures are far closer to reality, if there is really is a God out there.

Christians, without realizing it, when drawing on their defensive stature to protect God, take on this mythical view of God. Then when the danger passes, they once again paint God a person in the clouds, looking down with a smile of approval on all those who read the Bible [or Quaran], express 'faith' in a someday response by God to the very deep and impossible problems that man cannot solve. They go to bed at night thanking him for his goodness. A goodness that they have imagines arises from his hand - the same goodness that atheists accept arises from the universe in general.

But it remains that we cannot have it both ways. Either God is a being, able to act, and hasn't. Or he is just not. He is just force, the universe around us, mother earth, goodness in our hearts, random energy perhaps.

If we refer here to the Being God, then the question is valid. If we refer to a non-personal force, animate or inanimate, then the question changes in nature.

I think here, Min refers to a Personal God.

In that case - how can we avoid the reality of his failure to act?

Jeff

lovelylil2

Jeff,

I do not judge others for thier belief. I have friends who are Jewish and Muslim, also Budhist. I mean REAL friends, not just acquaintances. We discuss our religious beliefs all the time, and never argue. We respect each others path in life.

I believe ALL MEN belong to God no matter what his/her religious beliefs towards a personal God is. I am not better then anyone else just because I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Yes, I go a little further than Ghandi and worship Jesus. You are right, Ghandi did not. I admire Ghandi and all leaders like him. I would listen to any good spiritural or moral leader who does good for ALL people. Just that my personal choice for religious faith is Christianity and that is mainly because of the Jesus of the New Testament.

In the end of all discussions people are all the same and want the same thing; an end to all suffering in the world.

For the poster who said evil exists because we (man) exists. BRAVO! That is the most intelligent answer given on this thread yet.

thetrueone

Since the gods of the ancients were derived out human ignorance of the world they and also we live in,

Calamitous events such earthquakes, lighting , thunder even floods with all the fear and devastation occurring,

how could a truly moral, loving god been developed out those peoples minds ?

Are knowledge of the world of which we live has vastly increased over those times, to suggest these things among others

are caused by spiritual forces is morally repugnant. Humanity has always been on its own, just as it was thousands of years ago,

as it is today, in that realization mankind has strived to do something for himself and probably will continue to do so in the future.

frankiespeakin

I'm really not interested in winning any argument and have no hopes or goals of converting anyone over to my views about the lack of creditable evidence in the existence of the biblical Deity. I just like to post on some of these threads for the sake of the readers many of whom are anonymous.

I know that many JWs are reading these threads and perhaps it might help them see that leaving the WT doesn't mean you have to find another religion that is closer to the bible than the JWs are. I know when I left I spent a great deal of wasted time doing that,, hopefully these discussions will spare them that.

It seems that this forum has attracted quite a few Fundies who were never JWs and I feel it is good to combat much of their disinformation.

HappyGuy

Well the god defenders still have not made any reasonable response to the scenario I posted. They have written numerous multi paragraph exposes on why it is my fault and I need to do something about it. Of course the topic of this thread is not "If Happy Guy truly cared...". The scenario I posted presents a very clear moral question for their god. I will restate the scenario as succinctly as I can and ask the moral question directlly.

1. A worm, Onchocerca volvulus, lives in fast flowing rivers in Africa and South America.

2. According to religionists, "God" created this worm.

3. The black fly ingests the worm, the worm lives in the black fly. The black fly then bites people, the worm then infests the person bitten. According to religionists, "God" created the black fly.

4. The infestation of the worm in the human being causes problems that include blindness. According to religionists, "God" created human beings.

5. According to religionists God is a) love, b) all powerful, c) all knowing, and d) all wise.

6. The behavior of the Onchocerca volvulus and the black fly are out of control of human beings. The humans are not doing anything that contributes to the infestation of humans by the worm. They live in fast moving rivers which are not polluted,so "dirty" water is not the issue. This issue is not related in any way to the "free will" issue, nor is it a matter of the humans not following "Bible counsel", nor is it a matter of the victims being "evil". I don't think the Onchocerca volvulus is evil either, it is what it is.

7. It would be a trivial matter for the creator of the Onchocerca volvulus, the black fly, and the humans to intervene and do something so that humans no longer become blind due to the existence of the Onchocerca volvulus. Since this issue does not involve man's free will or universal sovereignty, or "good" vs "evil", there is no reason why "God" could not resolve this issue if he has the characteristics attributed to him by religionists as listed in #5 above.

8. The fact that God could do something about this but does not proves that either a) he does not care, b) he does not notice, c) he is powerless to act, or d) he is not an individual with consciousness and will as portrayed by the religionists.

I have asked the God defenders repeatedly to address these issues in their arguments with me, and they have refused and isntead put the blame on me and accuse me of being lazyand sitting at home "doing nothing" when they know nothing about me and have no idea what I do or don't do to address suffering in the third world.

So, I offer again to the God defenders. Using the scenario I layed out, answer the question posed as the topic of this thread without attacking me personally or blaming me or blaming the victims or using any other tactic to shift the question away from "If GOD truly Cared About Peple Wouldn't He DO SOMETHING by Now".

I gave a very clear cut example of something that God could easily do that does not involve free will, good vs evil, or universal sovereignty.

I am waiting for a reply which does not insult me or attack me personally or say it is my fault or my responsibility and which does not blame the victims.

minimus

Many Christians believe that Gandhi, since he never accepted Christ as his Savior, is destined to Hell.

Lil, do you believe that if a person does not accept Christ as their Savior, that they are going to Hell?

minimus

OK,, Stupid Happy Guy, it's still your fault, you fool. LMAO!

If God Truly Cared About People Wouldn't He DO SOMETHING By Now?

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