HG, I must say that you have very concisely and fairly explained what the thread question is about. I guess if Lil or others will not accept facts (about river blindness) and that my question is not about man but about God, what can you do? I earlier said it felt like I was "discussing" something with a Jehovah's Witness. When JWs simply cannot see a different point of view they block out any evidence or facts that will fairly question the argument. Try telling a Witness that "Jehovah" was never in the NT. They'll say , "YES it was. The clergy just took it out". Even though they cannot prove their assertion, they will stick to their guns because that is their single mind set. What can you do?? I give you credit for your "Christlike' patience.
If God Truly Cared About People Wouldn't He DO SOMETHING By Now?
by minimus 392 Replies latest jw friends
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AllTimeJeff
I have enjoyed this thread overall. It does touch on a big problem I have always had.
At first, it was other people's suffering. Then, it became my own suffering.
This is a working theory, and frankly, I don't intend to debate its merits, as it is a theory of mine only. I tend to be agnostic/deist on any given day, depending on my mood. (go figure) On those days that I tend to be deist, here are my thoughts about god in general (which are not dissimilar from PSacramento).
Like any (good) parent with many children, a parent will want their kids to become the people, the adults, that they can only uniquely become. A parents job is to nurture and help their kids discover themselves, to educate their kids, and then, turn them loose.
Using that comparison, I happily admit that "God" fails on many levels that good parents do not. However, I will allow that "God" quite possibly may not be as "powerful" to step in and alter events that man has caused. In addition, life and conciousness/self awareness (another concept I struggle with often) that man seems to possess is a very powerful mechanism to consider, and I concede that philosophically, it does argue for the existence of a higher power.
All of the above are just thoughts that I unfortunately cannot let go off at the moment, and as a result, I truly am not at peace yet. Do I believe and have faith that "god" exists? No. But I do allow that there are many arguments for, and the "spiritual" side we all seem to have does point in some kind of directioin.
I am firmly convinced that the traditional superstitious thought of organized religion is a fail through and through. Truth's from their sources should be sifted and gleaned, not swallowed whole at face value. So their explanations as to what god is doing, why he has or hasn't stepped in on man's affairs yet, are not something I take seriously at all.
I do my best to come up with my own. I have not been successful yet in doing so. But I am of the opinion that if a higher power who has in the past, created and/or nurtured life exists, he isn't powerful enough to "fix" what mankind has "broken".
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HappyGuy
I will allow that "God" quite possibly may not be as "powerful" to step in and alter events that man has caused
Which is why I used an example that could not be attributed to something that "man has caused". The creatures that cause river blindness, the black fly and the worm were created by god (supposedly) and placed into fast moving rivers. The worm was given an apetite for human flesh. Humans become infected by the worm simply because they exist.
My point is that the god as presented by the Christains cannot exist. Their claim is that God is:
1. Love (although some of their members tried to deny this fact)
2. All powerful
3. All knowing
4. All wise.
5. Omni present
If God is love then God could not watch the suffering of the millions of people who are stricken every year by the river blindness disease and not do something about it. Since he does not do anything about it then either he is not all powerful, does not care, does not notice, or set up the situation where millions of people would be stricken with river blindness on purpose and is sadistically basking in the suffering.
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AllTimeJeff
HG, I agree with you mostly. Don't you find it interesting in the light of your latest response that Christians do indeed "sift" their own holy books for what makes sense?
There is a growing number (albeit, still in a major minority) among Christians who inform themselves of "god" via both the bible and what is found in nature. When there is a conflict, nature wins most of the times among this minority group. I bring this up because, I resepct this approach more then a "I will believe all the bible as explained by my church come hell or high water" viewpoint.
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HappyGuy
Don't you find it interesting in the light of your latest response that Christians do indeed "sift" their own holy books for what makes sense?
I always knew that they did this but several discussions in this forum have shown to what extreme lengths they will go to in order to support their doctrine in that regard. For example, I posted the primise that "Jehovah" is a demon and gave 4 pages of abolutely horrific acts taken directly from the Old Testament to back up that claim and the god defenders came up with all kinds of reasons why I shouldn't believe those old testament scriptures. Huh?
I have met many truly spiritual people in my travels. Native Americans, aboriginals in South America, wtich doctors in Africa, yogis and yoginis in India, Buddhist monks, et al, and NONE of them obtained their spiritual insights from any books or from other humans. THAT I find very interesting.
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minimus
Happy Guy, you're gonna burn in hellfire!
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HappyGuy
minimus,
No I have seen what my destiny is and it is not that.
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AllTimeJeff
I always knew that they did this but several discussions in this forum have shown to what extreme lengths they will go to in order to support their doctrine in that regard.
HG, one thing I have learned from being here is that the "Christians" on this board are generally not representative of "Christians" in general. They are a small, disavowed, minority, speaking from fear.
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minimus
Remember, the "Christians" here are exjws. Get it??
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lovelylil2
minimus,
Your last statement applies both ways. It is just as hard to argue with an athiest, or agnostic that is an ex jw too. But for the record, I was a Christian way before I became a JW.
Happyguy,
I think we have to just agree to disagree. You are never going to make me an athiest and I am never going to make you a Christian. You keep asking me the same Q which is why doesn't God do something and the answer I will continue to give is HE IS. The river worm problem can be easily solved if the water was cleaned before it is drunk.
Jeff,
You actually make some good points.
All you guys, have a very Happy Holiday with your family and friends. Peace to you, Lilly