If theres no God why the earth, the brain the universe? (Atheist and Agnostics)

by cyberjesus 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    We decide the winners, but what put the ideas in our head in the first place to make these decisions? Also, things like art and beauty are subjective, but then there also tends to be things that have much greater appeal by a wide audience then other things... such as the beauty of a sunset on the beach.

    There are two main ways we learn/know anything.

    Conscious decisions.

    Non-conscious default.

    What is the difference?

    Conscious decisions are like having a bouncer outside Club 54 checking out the people in line who want to get in. If somebody isn't "cool" enough the bouncer/doorman tells them to get lost.

    Non-conscious default is passive acceptance of ideas, myths, prejudice, culture, nomenclature, gossip, misinformation.

    It is like accepting soup from a stranger with peculiar tidbits floating around inside. You swallow everything indiscriminately and accept the result.

    Now, how does that answer your question? (Q: what put the ideas in our head in the first place to make these decisions?)

    Until we BECOME a consious and rational adult we are at the mercy of our parents, friends, society and milieu (or Ethos, as the Greeks would say).

    What kind of ART or MUSIC you are subjected to and how your parents, friends, peers COMMENT on same is, for you, a 'GIVEN' or received "truth."

    How could you have "other"?

    Only by straying consciously OUTSIDE of your envelope...outside the box...outside your socio-economic status...outside your immediate education opportunity can you ACQUIRE a W...I...D..E..R set of choices.

    Beans and Rice will keep you alive. But, there are more choices!

    A bottle of Thunderbird will get you high. But, there are more choices!

    Art and Music exist in a VAST lineage of human culture over centuries of human development.

    Unless and UNTIL each of us takes the bother to investigate the BIG PICTURE of what precedes us and exists OUTSIDE our own narrow spectrum of "givens" we don't so much have TASTE as we do PREJUDICE about Art and Music.

    The Bank Tellers presumably have not spent their lives in personal discovery of the entire art milieu and seeing the contrast between ordinary talent and genius, conceptual commonplace and vision, mastery and mere technique.

    I spent 20+ years in the Art World and there are more bullshit artists than the other kind! A lot of poseur madness sloshes around in that pool.

    Or, to put it yet another way....would you rather have a graduate of medical school perform surgery on you or merely somebody who watches lots of doctor shows on television??

    Something like that. EXPERTISE is not merely talent. It is countless hours of dedication to splitting the difference between this and that and making CONSIOUS choices. Being the bouncer at the entrance of your own mind will keep the riff raff out of your brain!

  • zannahdoll
    zannahdoll

    Terry

    I am loving your mind! The points you make and the way you articulate your arguments are beautiful. It is a genuine pleasure reading your posts.

    Sometimes taste can be confused with prejudice... but I digress...

    So, then, is it your belief that as the art community would pick your friend over the amateur, simply knowing better, an atheist would pick not to have belief whereas the theist, as the bank tellers pick the amateur in your analogy, would choose belief?

    I just thought of an I Love Lucy episode: "Lucy Wants a Paris Gown" Lucy and Ethel go to a Jacque Marcel Fashion Show. Okay, cheesy I know, but I'm going somewhere with this...

    Let's say Jacque Marcel, in correlation to your analogy, is the professional artist. Ricky and Fred are the amateur artists (more like pranksters). Lucy and Ethel are the bank tellers (but Lucy and Ethel are art wannabe fashionistas).

    Lucy and Ethel, trusting the fashion expert, want Jacque Marcel dresses. Ricky insists they are too expensive. While having lunch at a cafe Fred and Ricky see a model from the fashion show walk by wearing a Jacque Marcel dress. Fred and Ricky think the high fashion look ridiculous. So Ricky and Fred decide to have dresses made out of burlap potato sacks and hats out of a horse feeder and present them as a gift to their wives passing them off as Jacque Marcel dresses so they don't have to buy the expensive ones... Bank Tellers that Lucy and Ethel were, they LOVED the dresses. They put them on and everyone goes to the cafe to eat. Next thing you know Jacque Marcel passes them with a few of the models. He stares at them. Lucy and Ethel think they should go up to him to say hello; they want to thank him and compliment him on the dresses. Before they get to do this Ricky starts laughing at them and says he really fooled them; he admits the dresses are not Jacque Marcel dresses and Lucy and Ethel are humiliated. So another day passes, they are again having lunch at the cafe and Jacque walks by with his models... only this time the professional artist dressed his models in exact replicas of the dresses and hats Ricky and Fred had made out of potato sacks and horse feeders. The professional artist decided that the amateur artists' work (which to the original creator was it a not work of art, but an absurd joke)... well, the professional artist decided that the amateur's JOKE was in fact, high fashion.

    I have gone to museums and art shows where I will see pieces of trash glued together and it will be considered a priceless work of art or a canvas painted in only one solid color and it will have a price tag for thousands of thousands of dollars. And these museums or art shows are not put on by amateurs: this is in the art world...

    I agree that there is skill and technique with art. I agree that with experience you get better. In my opinion there are things that should be considered art, and those that should not. There is art that is good and art that is bad. (going back to my thought of the sunset: are there universal beauties? Or is it our perception that makes it beautiful? If we are not there is it no longer beautiful?) I would like to say: yes, there are things beautiful, and things that are ugly... but there is a level of subjectivity.

    Being a doctor some subjectivity too (I've heard a joke as to that is why they call it "practicing" medicine) and there are opinions as to what course of action will work best depending on a ton of different variables, what is ethical, and often making hypotheses to fill in the blanks when there is knowledge unknown and hoping for the best...

    Opinions on art, even among professionals differs. Opinions in medicine differ. And, while amateurs may not have the skill level they sometimes, maybe often, can recognize the skill (put an amateur dancer next to a skilled dancer, or a singer with lack of training next to one with training... nearly all of us sees or hears the difference)

    I see it as this: it comes down to which came first: the imagination to create a god - OR - A Force in the Universe that creates an imagination to conclude that God exists.

    There isn't a right or wrong... there isn't a choice that the experts choose while the ignoramuses choose another...

  • zannahdoll
    zannahdoll

    YouTube clips...

    I Love Lucy

    Lucy Wants A Paris Gown (I Love Lucy) Part 1/2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDk_PMqBNc0&p=918508E6C2E07EB2&playnext=1&index=78

    Lucy Wants A Paris Gown (I Love Lucy) Part 2/2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htExe1vYLYM&feature=related

  • FollowedMyHeart
    FollowedMyHeart

    bookmarked

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Don't need no god to have a universe. There could just be a simple machine that spits out singularities, evey so often. When those singularities hit the void, the expand explosively, in an attempt to fill it. Can't be done, though.

    S

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    oh the memories! :-D

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    Its gonna be 3 years soon... it took only a couple of weeks to go from Believer - to Agnostic - to Nothig :-)

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Once you start to see it....all the chips just keep falling into place don't they? And everything begins to make sense.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    free thinking leads innevitable to intellectual honesty

  • mP
    mP

    If one believes in God then one needs to answer who created God. Anyway if there is a god he didnt writ ethe BIble which is a book w/ very questionable morals, downright lies and other selfish motivations.

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