Jesus Curses the Fig Tree

by cameo-d 104 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Your picture is from Thailand, not Israel. Your link is to "Australian/New Zealand Weed Risk Assessment adapted for Hawai'i."

    "In Israel, F. religiosa and it's associated pollinator wasp, Blastophaga quadraticeps are now both established and producing seedlings near irrigated areas and in exceptionally moist microhabitats." http://www.hear.org/starr/hiplants/reports/pdf/ficus_religiosa.pdf This is not describing conditions on the road between Jerusalem and Bethany 2000 years ago. The area around Jerusalem has a long dry summer and sometimes snows in winter.

    Note too, that the fruit is only half an inch in diameter and, although it is edible, it is considered to be stock food, except in times of famine. Hardly something for Jesus to get into a tizz about when it doesn't have fruit out of season. Also note that the species that fruit asynchronously are the ones that thrive in symbiotic relationships with other strangler fig species in tropical rain forest environments.

    But then .....

    The changes he caused that day was what was being referred to as the "withering of the tree".

    What are you trying to say here? Are you saying that Jesus didn't kill an actual tree? That the disciples didn't hear him curse an actual tree? That they didn't see an actual tree withered?

    Cheers

    Chris

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Black Sheep:

    But then .....

    The changes he caused that day was what was being referred to as the "withering of the tree".

    What are you trying to say here? Are you saying that Jesus didn't kill an actual tree? That the disciples didn't hear him curse an actual tree? That they didn't see an actual tree withered?

    YES. That is exactly what I am saying!

    They were speaking in a figurative sense. Jesus was using that type of tree as an illustration of how, just like a parasitic tree can destroy a good fruit tree, the industry of religion, along with it's lies, can destroy a human being right down to his soul. Religion 'feeds' off, not only it's members, but all the commercial trappings that it generates as well.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Neither of the accounts take the format of a parable.

    Neither say anything along the lines of ...... Jesus said, "I was just walkin' down the road lookin' for some munchies...."

    What is there about the grammar, or context, or whatever, of either of these accounts that shows that the authors believed that Jesus did not really kill a real fig tree?

    Cheers

    Chris

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Black Sheep:

    What is there about the grammar, or context, or whatever, of either of these accounts that shows that the authors believed that Jesus did not really kill a real fig tree?

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    You have to read between the lines. That is the only way some of this information could survive into our present day.

    Btw, scholars believe that Jesus traveled the Silk Road; the Silk Road ends in biblical Bethany. The etymology of the name "Bethany" has several meanings: "House of Ripe Figs", "House of the Poor", "House of Misery". Perhaps they were called ripe as a eupheumism of being "ripe to be picked"; in other words gullible enough to be taken advantage of. Maybe that's why the name also suggests poverty and misery.

    The town Bethphage (between Jerico and Jerusalem) has a name meaning "House of Unripe Figs". Bethphage was the city where the Kohanim Priests lived; they took care of the "clean place" on top of the Mount of Olives.

    From knowing the etymology, it appears that this is another clue that Jesus was cursing, not the green fig on an actual tree, but was cursing the priests from Bethphage, the House of Unripe Figs. More antedotal symbolism that supports the interpretation.

    The villages of Bethany and Bethphage were not far from each other. And both were a couple of miles outside of Jerusalem. The scriptures indicate that Jesus was in this area when he made his remarks, which I cited earlier from The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    What is there about the grammar, or context, or whatever, of either of these accounts that shows that the authors believed that Jesus did not really kill a real fig tree?

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Black Sheep:

    What is there about the grammar, or context, or whatever, of either of these accounts that shows that the authors believed that Jesus did not really kill a real fig tree?

    -----------------------------

    The grammar itself reveals that Jesus was not speaking of an actual fig tree.

    Etymology is the study of word origins; the root meaning of the words and how they evolved. Jesus was in the areas of Bethphage and Bethany, outside of Jerusalem when he cursed what the fig tree represented.

    In looking at the word origins of the name of these villages, the deeper meaning of "the curse" becomes clearer.

    The word "Bethphage" means "House of Unripe Figs".

    Bethphage was a village exclusively for the priests and it was the place where the second court of the Great Sanhedrin was located.

    When Jesus used the strangler fig as an example, he called it "useless" because it served no purpose except to be parasites on others, just like the religious system of the day (and which still continues). The religious system feeds off of its followers. It serves no useful purpose. It does not uplift people spiritually; instead it denigrates and abuses them. Any acts that appear charitable always have a hidden agenda. The strangler system uses people for personal gain and without thought of the detriment of their soul. They consider the weak minded as fair game.

    From the etymology of the word, the location where Jesus spoke his curse of the system, it becomes clearer that the "unripe fig" he spoke of was an illustration that meant he was referring to the priests of the village of Bethphage.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    The grammar itself reveals that Jesus was not speaking of an actual fig tree

    Correct.

    It was Matthew and Mark that were doing the talking about the actual fig tree. They were describing an event, in a location.

    Matthew 21:18 Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered

    Mark 11:13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

    They describe the event as having witnesses.

    Mark 11:20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

    Using your 'logic', the actual event never occurred, which throws into question all of the parts of the same story. If he didn't really kill a fig tree, then was he really hungry, did he really walk down the road, did the disciples really hear him curse the tree, did they really see it withered, was he really going to Jerusalem, did he really throw out the money changers?

    Cheers

    Chris

  • rabidewok
    rabidewok

    rabidewok: "

    Were not these scriptures written by someone who never even met the Jesus of the bible, and written at least 60 years after he supposedly died?? Who knows if this account even happened, or if anything in the bible even happened?? No historian during Jesus time even wrote about him. Why did it take 60 to a 100 years later before he is mentioned?

    ----------------------

    Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the actual scriptural references before you make comments that show your unfamiliarity with the subject being discussed.

    The scriptures we are discussing can be found at Matthew 21 and Mark 11.

    If you are interested in the authenticity of authorship, you can find scholarly reviews here: en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew

    From that site, there are leads to other detailed documents if you are inclined to look deeper.

    ----------

    rabidewok: "Were not these scriptures written by someone who never even met the Jesus of the bible, "

    According to the information we have, Matthew and Mark did meet and travel with Jesus for a few years.

    -----------------

    rabidewok: "No historian during Jesus time even wrote about him. Why did it take 60 to a 100 years later before he is mentioned?"

    cameo-d You said

    Perhaps you are not familiar with the persecution of Jesus's followers after his crucifixion. Anything written would have been destroyed.

    Many of the scrolls we have today have been found hidden in caves in clay vessels.

    Of course im familiar. Yah, they dissapeared the same way Joseph Smiths Golden plates did, how convienent. And I never said that Mathew didnt personally know Jesus, what i said was that the bible writers of the Gospels never Met the Jesus they speak of. Just copies of copies of copies.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Black Sheep: "

    It was Matthew and Mark that were doing the talking about the actual fig tree. They were describing an event, in a location.

    ....

    Using your 'logic', the actual event never occurred, which throws into question all of the parts of the same story. If he didn't really kill a fig tree, then was he really hungry, did he really walk down the road, did the disciples really hear him curse the tree, did they really see it withered, was he really going to Jerusalem, did he really throw out the money changers?

    --------------------------------

    I don't know the scripture right off, but paraphrased in my words, Jesus said to his disciples 'It is given to you to know the secrets of the kingdom'. In other words, they spoke freely among themselves discussing the religious and political system of the day.

    In the same way, when you are among your "apostate" friends, I am sure you all speak freely about the lies, oppression, injustices, and evil manipulations. You say things among your close friends that you would not speak out in public, nor around your JW family. This is what Jesus meant by saying "I speak to you about the inner workings of this religious business and how politics are tied into it and how this system works." (These were the "secrets" or hidden agendas and manipulations of this 'kingdom')

    Jesus also said that to the "others", meaning those outside of his little friendship circle, the messages must be veiled or disguised as stories. The reason for this was for their own protection. He was trying to get the masses to understand that they were being used, abused, and manipulated and that the religious rulers were using the excuse of god to control them.

    It's the same way when you plant subtle hints among your JW friends and family. You may ask a question or make a statement hoping it will trigger them to think on their own or look deeper into what you are really trying to say. You cannot just come out and say there is no such thing as the FDS or that their 'god' is no more than a few old men in a boardroom. Same thing when Jesus made up allegorical stories to make them think on their own and to search for the double meaning of what he was trying to say. You can't just tell someone what you know and have them believe it. It must come through their own reasoning.

    In keeping to that idea and format of using illustrations that have double meanings, it makes sense to me that Mark and Matthew could be describing a conversation in which Jesus used a strangler tree to illustrate the stronghold that the religious political system had on the people and how it would ultimately be to their detriment should they continue to allow this. The people could not live life to the fullest or have any happiness as long as they allowed this system to rule them and dictate their lives.

    From this conversation, the disciples attempted to portray this in story form, embellishing on it to make it sound like a realistic story, i.e. 'he was hungry", etc.

    Taking into account the differences in use of language and various translations or mistranslations, there is still enough there in those scriptures to decipher the meaning and to understand the intent.

  • Gerard
    Gerard

    Jesus Curses the Fig Tree

    I was about 15 and attending the Catholic church when the priest tried to explain how cool it was Jesus' vandalizing of a tree. That was the last time I had anything to do with religion. I just never came back. No judicial meetings, no shunning, no disfellowshipment. Just peace and sanity in my life.

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