Introducing myself.

by Danni 39 Replies latest jw friends

Waygooder64

Hey Danni!! I have to agree with the bulk of the posters on this thread,watch your heart very carefully.This person that you are interested in may be in a slump (witnesswise).His meeting attendance may be lacking and he may have some doubts about the "truth".He may be wanting to have a taste for the "world" and you just maybe his "test".The witnesses constantly remind each other that getting involved with someone out the organisation is wrong in Jehovah`s eyes,"being unevely yoked" is the term.The witnesses are so blinded by their beliefs and power structure that relationships other than those condoned by the organisation have a slim chance for success.If you do decide to pursue this relationship and he still wants to be a witness be prepared for some tough roads ahead.My advice....run don`t walk away from this guy.Just my opinion...
kenny2

Hi Danni,
It's good to see you came here. Finding out as much as you can is the best thing you can do in any circumstance and so it is in researching the witnesses. You ask some questions which have sometimes no real easy answers. Stick around and you will find out what kind of world it is.
My apologies for all the negativity in chat regarding the witnesses. I told you when I first left it was over five yrs before my own mother would speak to me. Believe, me this was not because of a lack of love on her part, she is just really brainwashed by them to the extent of believing that this is God's will. She does speak to me I believe in secrecy of fear of being disfellowshipped herself. Actually now I think they "allow" her to speak to me on topics non related to anything spiritual. I don't know they change their policy on it frequently.
Am I bitter about it? You damn skippy I am!!! LOL I have met very few JWs who were not very good hearted people. But their devotion to an organisation which they believe is led by Jehovah God himself, has caused much pain with me and others. And hey, we here are good hearted people too. (most of us)
Anyway, stick around for awhile. Welcome to the board.
Kenny
neyank

Thanks expat.
neyank
concerned mama

Hi Danni,
Welcome to the board. I am another outsider who came here lookimg for information on this baffling JW sect/cult religion. What I learned here made a lot of sense and explained some of the things that have happened. My teenage daughter has a JW boyfriend, and he is a sweet, kind, moral kid, but yes, although he is pretty rebellious regarding his religion, he is still on a different road. To break away from this cult takes incredible personal courage and growth. JWs aren't evil, but they are brainwashed. They sometimes do very cruel things and truely believe that they are doing right. They just don't think. As an outsider, the more I look into it, the the mind control aspects are extremely scarey and bizarre.
E mail me if you want. Please look out for yourself.
Danni

Hey everyone thanks for the warm welcome. Sorry I did not reply to you sooner I was taking advantage of my day off.
Waygooder64: My advice....run don`t walk away from this guy.Just my opinion...
LOL I will keep that in mind.
Neyank : if I remember right,years ago being in law enforcement or having any other job with the gov. was considered bad.
It was thought that the person with such a job was working for satans gov.
Me working for Satan? I work for the public. I am here to protect not hurt. I would fight for the rights of every Jehovah's Witness just as I would for all others.
Kenny2: My apologies for all the negativity in chat regarding the
witnesses.
No need to apologize Kenny. I am sorry for pain you must suffer between you and your family. I hope some one will pick up the phone and call you. It could be they do not realize how much pain they have cause you.
In essence, whilst we may not have received literal threats of being killed off if we didn't agree, we were warned that we would be 'spiritually' bumped off if we questioned too much. This is the practice of disfellowshipping or put another way, complete ostracism. Cut off entirely from fellowship with family and friends, everyone you've always known.
Celtic: I'm trying to put this all simply, but probaly not doing a very good job of it, how to choose the words, come on Mark.
Well said. I see a lot of pain here. I hope you all can find some way of not letting the past ruin your futures. The biggest problems I have with organized religion is the emotional impact it can have on people. The sufferings I am reading about is a type of emotional abuse. Some of you said, you were raised in the religion that would mean you have been programed from birth to believe in one way. Most of you appear to have be shelted from the realities of life. This has done more harm than good. Have any of you gotten some type of help since your departing from the religion??? If not please consider getting some professional help.
forgetmenot

Howdy Danni! First of all, most of them are very nice people, but they are a little misguided. They love God but they only see one way of getting to him, and will reach that at any cost.
[Quote] If we are on separate roads I can accept this and move on. The world if full of beautiful men. This one just happen to catch my eye. His manners and well spoken words was a + for me. [Quote/]
His manners and well-spoken words are a result of years of teaching. They aren't bad people, but their whole life is centered on using their manners and well spoken words to attract you to God (and they feel that the only way to reach him is through the Organization of Jehovah's Witness and the Governing Body--probably should look up some stuff about them--this is where all the decisions are made).
And I don't want to break your heart, but there are a couple of things I've noticed. In my hall we had a brother, who wasn't that bad looking, and he was out in service one day. The lady at the door (who turned out to be a close friend of my mother, but not a JW) thought to herself "Wow, that guy is so cool! I'd become a JW just to check him out!" and so she acted really interested. The downer in all this is that he couldn't care less how cool she was, he just wanted her to come to meetings and be able to reach God. He didn't have any interest in her at all. Another example is my dad's. He studied with a young woman (who he didn't think was all that cool, but she thought the world of him) and played off of her liking him, to get her to come to meetings. So this guy could be trying to lure you in, sorry girl.
One possible reason why he didn't really want you to come to meetings with him is because you are a woman. If a brother (that's the title given to any male members) shows interest in a worldly (title given to a non-member) woman, it could cause a lot of problems because he could be questioned about his intent with you. An upstanding fine brother should not marry out side of the religion otherwise he is viewed as not "marrying in the lord". No sex before marriage.
His next proper move, instead of you going to meetings with him, would be to send a sister (title given to any female members) to study with you, you won't see him for a while. Then, after you are converted, he may pursue you. But he may drop you because he just wanted you to have "everlasting life" or a connection with God in the first place.
But remember, he really thinks he's doing the right thing. He's not lying when he says he's trying to spread the "Good News". They just have very limited views of how to reach God.
Danni

And I don't want to break your heart, but
LOL don't worry about it you didn't break my heart I like those who don't pull punches with me.
"Wow, that guy is so cool! I'd become a JW just to check him out!" and so she acted really interested. The downer in all this is that he couldn't care less how cool she was, he just wanted her to come to meetings and be able to reach God. He didn't have any interest in her at all.
LOL All that just to be save huh?? haha. Well atleast he did it for god right?? (joking).
Seriously I kind of figured he was not interested in me a while back so cut off our communications . He kept calling me everynight until i agreed to speak with him. He confessed he wanted a realtionship with me. Now after reading your words it just may be the real reason he's come on so strongly now. To give me over to his god.
By the way: some one did visit me from their church not to long ago but I was not home . They left a little message saying they needed to speak with me it was important. I wonder now.....
teejay

Just because I don't agree with the fanatical rumblings of a few hardcore witness haters does not mean that I am going back. I see the problems with the religion, but I'm not so blinded by hate that I don't see that there are good people within the ranks.
Thanks, Naeb. Beautiful. Reads exactly like something I would write. Way cool. Thanks for saying it.
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btw, hello, again, Danni. Hope Alan answered all your questions on the other thread. Sorry for the intrusion here... just had to give Naeb a shout-out for what he said.
I'm gone.
tj
Earnest

Hi Danni,
As one who is still regularly at JW meetings and who was taught JW beliefs from birth I would like to just make some comments on two issues that have been raised, namely shunning of those excommunicated and the "protection" given to paedophiles.
It is true that JWs are told to shun those excommunicated and this is based on such scriptures as 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 and the second letter of John verses 10,11. Whether this includes not even talking to them or helping them in a case of need has been understood differently at different times but my own understanding does certainly not extend to treating such people as if they don't exist. My sister (who is excommunicated) and I still enjoy company and conversation and there has been no attempt to prevent me from doing so. However, as many on this forum can testify this is not common practice and shunning in its absolute form has caused a great amount of heartbreak.
A lot has been said about the "protection" that is given to paedophiles by JWs. The situation is that they will not take action against someone unless there are two or more witnesses, or a person confesses, to their wrong. This is based on the principle at Deuteronomy 19:15 and, understandably, it is unlikely for there to be witnesses in instances of paedophilia. That does not mean JWs have any love for such wickedness but that they stick to the legal principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty. As they see it, it is a scriptural requirement to do so. The girl I love was abused as a child and her step-father remained an elder for many years. But as an adult she addressed her nightmares and this man is no longer allowed responsibility in the congregation due to her courage. My own view is that she should have gone to the police but she did not want to give evidence in court. However, there are also many instances where such abuse has been covered over and I can only agree with silentlambs that such ones should not be allowed to represent JW in any public capacity.
I think that most JWs would respect your position as a law officer but do not use firearms themselves. I absolutely agree with everyone here that if you carry on with this relationship you should go in with your eyes wide open. Best wishes whatever you do.
Earnest
Richie

Hi Danni...
I promised to give you more in-depth information on the Witnesses. Firstly, you can of course go to my previous posts and check my experiences before and after I was disfellowshipped, but I would also strongly suggest that you visit the "EscapeFromWatchtower.com", where you will find the necessary feedback. I will give you one excerpt from that link, which I am sure you'll find more than interesting. I realize it's quite a lengthy report but I believe nonetheless necessary in your case.
"...Would it not be better for the making of disciples to encourage freedom but teach discernment?
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Jehovah's Witnesses use the below stated scriptures as a basis to completely shun a person who has left their organization. As with many other organizations personal freedom is lost and the brotherhood of individual maturity and total reliance on the "head of every man" and "the one and only mediator, Christ, are replaced for the obedience to a hierarchical human structured organization". In the attempt to quiet dissenters and stamp out any opposition, the Watchtower's interpretation of the following scriptures include the restriction of exchanging greetings to those who have left or have been disfellowshipped from their organization. In many cases, but not all, this includes close family members who do not live in the same household. If they do live in the same household they can speak, yet social activities are strongly discouraged and spiritual discussions are not allowed.
1 Corinthians Chapter 5
"Actually fornication is reported among you, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain man has of his father ... In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not meaning entirely with the fornicator's of this world or the greedy persons and extortion's or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I an writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reveler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (1 Cor 5:1, 9-13)
Quit mixing in company with

In First Corinthians chapter 5 a man was having sexual relations with his fathers wife on a continual basis. It was not a one time event. This man was continually having sexual relations with his father's wife. For this he was to be removed from the congregation. Paul's counsel was for anyone called a brother who was continually practicing fornication, revelry, greediness, drunkenness and extortion was to be removed from the congregation, not even to eat a meal with them. This was not a person who did an occasional wrong and was willing to make corrections. This had absolutely nothing to do with a person who does not go along with all the teachings of a particular religious organization's policies and rulings. Nor does it have anything to do with persons being required to follow doctrinal and theological interpretations of scripture. It does include all those who go against the meaning of the Christ, by a continual practice of selfish and hurtful actions against their fellow man. Only a continual and thoughtless practice of hurtful and harmful acts towards others would merit such a removal. Misapplying this scripture, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Jehovah's Witnesses, use this scripture to excommunicate or disfellowship any member who disagrees and questions any of their doctrinal teachings and theological interpretations, this being a highly effective controlling tool in manipulating their followers.
Some examples of inconsistency and misapplication of scripture, are cases where Jehovah's Witnesses have been disfellowshipped for disagreement of unclear doctrinal interpretations. Other strange examples are working for the military in a non combat work, employment or contract work of other religious organizations, smoking tobacco, and the list of offenses can be actually exhaustive.
One grandmother, who could not go along with the Kingdom Hall Elders counsel to leave the room when her disfellowshipped granddaughter eats with her non witness husband, but instead continued to eat with her and speak to her, was disfellowshipped and as a result, lost association with her entire family.
"To The Extent You Did It To One Of The Least Of These My Brothers, You Did It To Me"
Matt 25:40

Contrary To Popular Belief, ALL Of Humanity Are Christ's Brothers

Another 91 year old man, spoke in a private conversation to a friend, expressing disagreement with one of the Watchtower Society's teachings, such as the year 1914 being Christ's invisible presence, was also disfellowshipped, resulting in being completely cut off and shunned by the entire congregation, organization and many family members, after 70 years of loyal and faithful association. This man received no help, no love, understanding, empathy and support shown to him for the rest of his remaining elderly years of life. And being elderly, living alone with no family and long time friends can be a serious hardship on any person. After his death, no one from the congregation even attended his funeral. He died a lonely, broken man. His many years of loyal, faithful service of showing love and kindness to the people in his congregation were completely ignored. These are only a couple cases out of thousands. Search the Internet and you will find many, many more, stories of abusive shunning towards Christ's brothers, such as an 85 year old elderly man named Herman Zweigart, who has also been rejected and cut off by the abusive Watchtower policy of shunning.
2 John
"For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

The evidence shows that 2 John 2:10,11 , applies not to a simple "Hello" or "How do you do" , but to an address that implies agreement with the cause or teachings , wishing both favor and success.

This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting (khairo) to him is a sharer in his wicked works." vs 5-11 (New World Translation)
"The man who is so advanced that he is not content with what Christ taught has in fact no God. The man who bases his life on Christ's teaching (Not a slave class or governing body of men), however, has both the Father and the Son as his God. If any teacher comes to you who is disloyal to what Christ taught (Not the Watchtower Society), don't have him inside your house. Don't even wish him 'Godspeed', unless you want to share in the evil that he is doing. (Phillips Modern Translation)
In the Second letter of John, counsel is given about the Antichrist. This is said to be all persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. It is then said that Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. And these persons are not to be greeted by Christians or they will be a sharer in his or her wicked works. Notice that this applies to all Antichrists who do not remain in the teaching of the Christ, not the teachings of a "slave class" or particular religious organization. It would be a serious misapplication of John's letter, to label a person an "Antichrist", because of their leaving the Watchtower or any other church and manmade organization, but continue to live a life with compassion and forgiveness of others, imitating God and Christ. The misapplication of this scripture, and manipulation tactic helps the Watchtower Society and other organizations to effectively control and prevent any of their members from communicating with those who have left the religion and could expose them to answers that differ from the organization's interpretive rulings and teachings.
In addition, to the term "Antichrist" not applying to those who have left man made organizations, this term also needs to be defined correctly. The true meaning of those who are Antichrists, are not people who have left a man made religious organization. Nor are they those who do not acknowledge the many theological and doctrinal explanations of Christ. In addition, all person who reject religious organization doctrines about the Christ are forgiven. (Mark 3:29)
"I assure you that any sin can be forgiven, including blasphemy; but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. It is an eternal sin." Mark 3:28-29
The Antichrist pertains to all people who reject the true meaning of the Christ, practicing mercy and loving kindness to their fellow man. Faith in Christ is most certainly required, but those who fail to have this are still in no doubt different from truly evil people, as Apostle Paul notes in his letter to the Romans:
"For whenever people of the nations that do not have the law (of Christ), do by nature the things of the law, these people although not having law, are a law to themselves. The are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts , while their conscience is bearing witness with them and , between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused." Romans 2:14-15
"Circumcision of the body is a good thing if you obey the law. But if you break the law, you are like a man who has not been circumcised with this mark of the Jew. So if a man who has not been circumcised obeys the law, will he not be like a man who has been circumcised? Some people have not been circumcised, but they obey the law. They will show that you should be punished. You have the written law and you have been circumcised, and yet you break the law. If a person is a Jew only on the outside, he is not really a Jew. And true circumcision is not something that is done on the outside of the body. If a person is a Jew inside, he is really a Jew. It is God who praises him, not people. True circumcision is done in the heart. It is in the spirit, not in the body. Such people are not praised; but God praises them." Romans 2:25-29
It is only the rejection that sins against the Holy spirit this is considered "unforgivable." Only by putting selfishness, unforgiveness and sacrifices above performing mercy towards our fellowman can truly put us in the category of the Antichrist. It is our love of God and love of his people that determine what and who we really are. No rejection of a "slave class, " human religious organization can separate us from the love of Christ.
"Can't Talk To You .... You Left Jehovah"

This Claim Is Not A True One For Leaving A Man Made Religious Organization

Another point is the greeting itself. In contrast to the above scripture in 2 John 2:10,11, there are other scriptures that tell Christians to speak to any persons who leave the Christ, including apostates. Notice in James 5:19,20, Christians are told to "turn a sinner back" "who has been mislead from the truth" and "save his soul for death". In 2 Timothy 2:24-26 Christians are told to help ones to "come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil". And in Titus 1:10-13, It states "It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not ..." So it is very clear that Christians are instructed to speak to all, including those who turn away from the teachings of Christ.
The evidence shows that the greeting then, in 2 John 2:10,11 , applies not to a simple "Hello" or "How do you do" , but to an address that implies acceptance and agreement with his cause or teachings , wishing him favor and success. As Phillips Modern Translation shows, it is "wishing this person Godspeed" or for God's approval on his or her actions that go against the teaching of the Christ (Not a slave class or governing body of men). To welcome him in this manner would indeed make one "a sharer in his wicked works." As an example, there are many persons, groups, organizations and governments who are willing to both exchange greetings and sit at the table for peace talk negotiations, even though they are at very great odds against each other. By acknowledging each other for communication, they are not breaking their integrity or compromising their views, but are using their knowledge and beliefs to further benefit their cause in a positive direction. It is evident that any religious organization can misapply this scripture to manipulate, control and prevent their members from obtaining information that might expose their organizational policies as false. To prevent this from happening they wield the controlling, tactical weapon of "disfellowshipping" or "excommunicating."
All Christians are to follow the example of their leader, Jesus Christ and to "follow his steps closely" as a "model". (1 Pet 2:21). And Jesus Christ was willing to exchange a greeting with and speak to the father of apostates, Satan the Devil. (Math 4, Luke 4) He was willing to speak to him, refute him and prove him wrong. Jesus also exchanged greetings with and spoke to the apostate Jewish Pharisees, trying to bring them back to God. After Jesus death in the flesh, being made alive in the spirit, he preached and communicated with the apostate demons. (1 Pet 3:19) Jehovah, as well, not only held a conversation with the apostate Satan in heaven over the man Job but also accepted his challenges. (Job 1 & 2) Jehovah also had spoken over and over again with the "apostate nation" of Israel. (Isaiah 10:16) Unlike the Watchtower policy of shunning them, refusing a "Hello", Jehovah repeatedly sent forth prophets. He was "willing to set matters straight." (Isaiah 1:18)
The Greek Words "Khaire" and "Aspasmos" Are Interchangeable
Apparently when speaking of 1 John 9 & 10 in the Watchtower issues 7/15/85 page 31 and 4/15/88, the Watchtower argues that khaire means to rejoice, a simple greeting, while aspazomai means a more affectionate embrace, enfolding in the arms, kiss, greeting or welcome, and that Apostle John used khaire to go a step further than aspazomai and prevent even a common "good day" to be said. Apparently, the Watchtower overlooks or ignores these two Greek words khaire and aspazomai in the account in Luke 1:28-29. Here the two Greek words are obviously used interchangeably.
"And he came to her and said, "Greetings (khaire), favored one! The Lord is with you." But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting (aspasmos) this might be." - Luke 1:28-29
Mary applies the term aspasmos to the word khaire pronounced by the angel. She did not do this because the angel had, in the Watchtower definition, "enfolded" her in his arms or kissed her, nor had he at this point engaged in a "long conversation" with her. She refers, not to an embrace or a kiss, but to his "words."
The Watchtower also fails to recognize that the Greek verb khairein used by John does not relate to some simple greeting such as "Hello." It is not the least bit less "warm" than the other Greek term discussed. To the contrary, the term khairein literally means "to be rejoicing" and corresponds to the Hebrew term shalom, meaning "peace be with you." It was used to express not a mere commonplace greeting, but to express personal or social favor and acceptance, even to express recognition of authority. Recognizing this, some translations, rather than rendering it as simple "greeting", render it as to "welcome."
Clearly then, what a Christian denies to an Antichrist is not some simple salutation such as
"Hello" or "How do you do," but denies this person the address and actions which imply acceptance, approval and agreement with for them or their cause, wishing them favor, success and even support. To "welcome" a person in this manner would indeed make one "a sharer in his wicked works." To the contrary simply talking to a person and exchanging a greeting does not of itself imply acceptance, agreement, support, favor and success. True common sense should reveal that people do not become partners in the evil things if they exchange greetings and communicate, especially when attempting to refute someone out of wrong views, convincing them of the error of their ways. Quite the opposite, the Scriptures show this can be a Christian obligation and duty. (1) To put a blanket, restrictive interpretation on this scripture of John and apply it as a controlling tactic, is to abuse what is written, slanting it for man made organizational purposes, which goes against the very meaning of Christianity.
Matthew Chapter 18 Verses 15 To 17
"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you , you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
Here Jesus instructs his deciples to talk personally one on one to a person who commits a serious sin. If the sinner does not listen then further instruction to bring along two or three witnesses is given. Again, if the sinner does not listen, then the instruction is given to involve the entire congregation, not limiting this only to the elders. And if the sinner still does not listen, then the sinner, is to be treated as a gentile and tax collector. The point especially noted here is the fact that this person is both a continual sinner of hurtful acts towards others and when confronted, is brought up before everyone. Never are there any secret elder meetings held to determine the outcome of the person. But rather a public confrontation is before all and an honest attempt to fairly decide what shall be done are the instructions.
The end result of a person who refuses to stop hurting others, is to receive the treatment given to the gentile and tax collector. How was a gentile and a tax collector treated by Jesus and the first century Christians ? Jesus himself both exchanged greetings, ate meals and spoke to them. It was the false religious leaders, the Pharisees who questioned this action. (Matthew 11:19) (Mark 2:15-16) For the parable Jesus gave, he stated that it was only the tax collector's prayer God heard, not the religious Pharisee, showing that being humble and repentant was more important then following the sacrifices of the "letter of the law. (Luke 18:10-14) Unlike the Jewish leaders, the Pharisees, who put sacrifice over mercy and shunned the people of the nations and tax collectors, the common Jews spoke and had dealings with them. And in imitation of Christ, who ate meals and spoke to them, the first century Christians did not shun these persons as well. So to treat a person today as a tax collector and a gentile (person of the nations), would be not to let their hurtful ways against others, influence us to do the same. Nor would we approve of the selfish acts towards our fellow man. But it would not restrict us from showing mercy to them, along with the exchange of greetings, words and conversations. How unlike Jehovah's Witnesses who completely shun anyone who leaves the Watchtower organization, including close relatives and family members.
2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14
"Now we are giving your orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition you received from us. For you yourselves know the way you ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among you nor did we eat food from anyone free. To the contrary, by labor and toil night and day we were working so as not to impose an expensive burden upon you."
"But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."
The Watchtower Society treats this scripture as a lesser offense, a "marking." But is it? The sin is for "anyone not obedient to our word". This word is the teaching of the Christ. Certainly this is no less an offense then 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 and 2 John. In addition, the same Greek phrase (synanamignysthai) for "stop associating" is used in both 2 Thessalonians 3:14 and 1 Corinthians 5:11. There is no difference in the force of the term in both texts. In both cases, Christians are urged to "keep this one marked", to avoid intimate fellowship on a personal level supporting their hurtful and selfish acts and unfair judgment of others. That is the extent of the counsel, nothing more. This did not include a shunning and refusal to exchange greetings, words and conversations, rather, the Christians were only to "stop associating with him" by supporting a lifestyle that fails to love one's fellow man. They were to absolutely "continue admonishing him as a brother." They were never to stop following the true meaning of the Christ, to love your fellow man as yourself. And this "marking" of non support of hurtful actions were only applied to those who left the teaching of the Christ by putting either selfishness or religious laws ahead of mercy and forgiveness. This has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of a religious organization with blanket theological restrictive rulings and polices, such as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Jehovah's Witnesses, enforce.
In this context of 2 Thessalonians, to be "walking disorderly" would solely mean the practice of selfish and hurtful acts towards one's fellow man, as there were those who were imposing unnecessary "expensive burdens" on the brothers for food and material provisions, while refusing to work for it, for "if anyone does not want to work , neither let him eat." They were also "meddling " in other people's affairs that "does not concern them."It had absolutely nothing to do with theological interpretations on the many doctrinal issues outside the true meaning of the Christ, love, forgiveness and mercy. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-17)
Titus 3:9-10
"But shun foolish questionings and genealogies and strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned."

Here, in one of the pastoral letters, Titus is instructed to "turn down foolish questionings" and "fights over the law" that exist within the congregation. He is then told to reject those in the congregation who are promoting a sect, but only after admonishing them two times.Nowhere is this rejection implied to mean a total shunning of the person. These instructions are about "fights over the law. " This is because most religious groups put legalism, laws, rules and organizational polices above mercy and love of our fellow man. Titus is instructed to put mercy over sacrifice, to "turn down" questioning over doctrines and theology. When people put theological articles, such as the Watchtower's "questions from readers" and quotes from various publications and elders manuals above the flexibility and rule bending of mercy and agape love towards their fellow man, they go against the very teaching of the Christ.
What is promoting a sect? It is putting theology and doctrinal interpretations above love, forgiveness and mercy. True Christian "freedom" contains the allowance of personal beliefs on all doctrinal interpretations that do not hurt one's fellow man. Promoting a sect would be those Christians who were not to "remain in the teaching of the Christ", of love of neighbor. By following and enforcing the theology of a particular religious counsel, slave class or governing body would instead be promoting a sect and should be avoided at all costs. Christians would "maintain their hold on the traditions that were taught" from the inspired writers of the bible and Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, "whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours (theirs)." And those traditions were to treat all others tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving and treating one's fellow brothers as a family household. (Thessalonians 2: 15; 3:6; Galatians 5:1; 2 Cor 3:17; 2 John 9)
Negative Labels, Name Calling
and Imputing Wrong Motives
Part of the shunning policy includes the announcing of one's name as wicked on the platform to the entire congregation, which I really believe to be slander and defamation of character, a sin in the goes against the real teaching of Christ and God. The fine reputation that one has taken years to build up, along with all the love, justice, mercy and kindness they have shown, is completely wiped out in a matter of a few minutes. This is nothing short of Un-Christ like and unloving and is damaging to each individuals relationship with God and Christ. People are wrongly accused of "leaving Jehovah", when in some cases they have just found him. Others, who dare speak out are negatively labeled "apostates: and "evil slaves".
After the early Christian congregation, changed from a spiritual brotherhood based on faith and love to an institutionalized central human authority structure, a tactic used against those who did not agree with the church government and teachings were to label those as "heretics" and to accuse them of leaving God and Christ. Ignatius in his Epistle to the Ephesians , chapter VI, from the early part of the second century, states:
"For he that yields not obedience to his superiors is self-confident quarrelsome and proud".
Not much different from the 8/1/80 Watchtower, pages 19 and 20:
"He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the "faithful and discreet slave", though whom he has learned the best part, if not all he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes. He develops a spirit of independence, and becomes 'proud in heart'.....something detestable to Jehovah."
These are words remarkably similar to hose of Ignatius in his effort to magnify the importance of Episcopal authority.
Cyrian of the years 200 to 258 A.D. had denounced any who did not accept what teachings and laws came down from the God's supposed channel of men and accused them of being guilty of the sin of "Korah, Dathan, and Abiram" who rebelled against Moses and Aaron.
Over seventeen centuries later the Watchtower Society repeats this same line of reasoning in the Watchtower Sept 15, 1981 pages 26-32:
"Nor does the fault rest with the faithful Christian relatives. It is the disfellowshipped person who has made problems for himself and for his relatives, as did Korah, Dathan and Abiram.
And the Watchtower 2/1/52, page 79 states:
"We must show our understanding in these matters, appreciating our relationship to the visible theocratic organization, remembering the fate of those like Korah and Achan and Saul and Uzziah and others who forgot the theocratic order."
If we intend to really follow and live according to the teaching of the Christ, that is in agreement with agape love then we should not resort to ungodly methods, as the Pharisees, the visible and centralized church authority and human visible organizations such as the Watchtower, to promote our theology. Ridicule, name-calling, such as "sinner", "apostate" and "evil slave", along with stereotyping, slander, impugning wrong motives, such as accusing others of "leaving God or Jehovah", and power plays are all telltale signs that something is amiss and that the person or organized group is not living in agreement with agape love of forgiveness and compassion. So are sarcasm, deception, coercion, manipulation, as with the enforcement and emotional blackmail of loosing association with family and friends, due to one's disagreement with human authority teachings or laws. The Pharisees were intent of surfacing flaws and used whatever means were available to discredit Jesus, just as the Watchtower Society and other organizations do to people who leave their man made organizations. Sometimes we too find flaws and discredit people and movements, simply for not agreeing with our interpretive standards. But when laws are enforced, with unbalanced and hurtful actions against others, the appropriate time arises.
Of course it would be the best to make disciples and encourage freedom but teach discernment. That is the most balanced. However, when laws, policies and obedience go beyond mere disagreement, imposing teachings and theology that enforce hurtful and slanderous actions, this must be exposed to others. Just as Christ spoke against the practices of the Pharisees in his day, including turning over the money changing tables in the temple, we all have the responsibility to speak out when others are being hurt and we have either the knowledge and experience to help.
The Prodigal Son
After a person is disfellowshipped they must wait a certain amount of time to be "reinstated" or accepted back into the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Many will attend the meetings for an entire year or even two years. In this time, no one is allowed to speak or say a greeting to them. In time, the elders will approach this disfellowshipped person and require them to obey their instructions. In other cases the disfellowshipped person will write a letter to the elders and a judicial, legal hearing will be held exclusively by the elders. How unlike the prodigal son of Jesus' illustration, where forgiveness took place with no legal requirements. Instead, the Watchtower requires the approval of a "slave class:" and their appointed elders for a person to be considered acceptable by God.
Footnotes: (1) In Search of Christian Freedom - pages 340-341 - Raymond Franz
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Conditional Friendship
"A True Companion is loving all the time, and is a brother that is born for when there is distress" - Proverbs 17:17
Many have felt that "the friends", fellow believers that are Jehovah's Witnesses, are different then the friends in "the world". Many are, and some of the most loving people I have ever known. Others are not, such as a brother and sister who underhandedly solicited all my clients in business. I will always have deep feelings of affection for many of the brothers and sisters. Yet, the fact that they will not even greet or speak to me because I left, not Christ, but the Watchtower organization, has made me truly aware of how fair weather and conditional their friendships really were. There are many fond memories of being out in field service, stopping for coffee and donuts, and many fine conversations in various car groups. Also going to Laundromats and door to door, having different people with totally different reactions to the preaching. There were many caring persons but also serious clicks in the congregation and many I personally found to be persons who were more concerned about meeting the legal organizational requirements and sacrifice, then showing mercy and loving kindness to each other.
The value of a good and loyal friend is beyond measure. Yet, in all honesty, most of the friendships in the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses are a conditional friendship. The Watchtower April 1, 1986 - States - "Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. So, in addition to the bible, and the teaching of the Christ, all the creeds of Jehovah's Witnesses are to be accepted in order to be approved for association. Yet these unique teachings change from year to year. They are known as "present truths" resembling a light that zig zags brighter and dimmer like a dimmer switch going up and down. Also, one can observe, many of the "friends" befriend others because of their status or title in the congregation. I have personally seen this on a large scale.
In Steven Hassan's, book entitled "Combating Cult Mind Control", on page 122, he speaks of destructive groups, noting on the type of friendships that exist, saying, "A family's love is a much stronger force than the conditional love given by cult members and leaders. A family's love supports one's right to grow into an autonomous adult and make one's own life decisions. A cult's love attempts to keep a person forever as a dependent adolescent -- threatening to be withdrawn if the person makes his own life decisions that differ from the leader's orders."
One of the greatest part of having true friends, is being able to open up to them. To tell them in private

He What? He Spoke Bad About Jehovah's Organization?

conversation your true feelings, even if it is not accepted by all or what should be according to others. Yet in most cases this does not always hold true in "Jehovah's organization." For no one is allowed to speak openly in a critical way of the group. Even private speech that is critical of the organization, can be considered to be "complaining", "murmuring" and "apostasy." The organization then erroneously interprets Leviticus 5:1 to tattle tale on any who speak negatively of the organization. This of course goes even further, for no one is allowed to even speak to a former member of the group and ask him or her why they made their decision to leave the organization. If caught speaking to former members, they too, run the risk of being withdrawn and disfellowshipped, loosing all of their so called friends and family members who are in the religion.
I can appreciate the example brought out by brother Ray Franz of the account of Jonathan and King David. Here David was in a sense disfellowshipped. He was placed in a position of complete disfavor with "Jehovah's organization", the nation of Israel. The theocratic appointed King Saul had viewed him as an enemy, "an evil slave". David was forced to live like a disfellowshipped person, even associating and living with Pagans ! Now, how did David's good friend Jonathan treat him ? Did he not remain loving all the time and stick to him during David's time of distress ? If Jonathan had lived according to the Watch Tower concept of an overriding duty to uphold and support all organizational action and policy, he would have stopped associating with him, speaking with him, eating a meal with him, (2 Cor 5:11) and even refusing to exchange a greeting with him, or he would have been a sharer in David's so called wicked works. (David's works were pronounced wicked by King Saul and the Nation of Israel) (2 John 2:10). Instead, Jonathan stuck loyal to David because he believed that David was blessed of Jehovah, despite the organizational rejection he was experiencing. Jonathan's loyalty was not predicated upon, nor controlled by, organizational acceptance and approval. It had a far higher basis.
"I hope you understand, but the Watchtower says"

A personal experience of mine, was quite a few years ago, I had confided in a close friend, telling him my changing views of the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Suddenly he became frightened and nervous. I called him on the phone about two weeks later and he told me that he spoke to one of the elders and looked up articles in the Watchtower, such as "what to do if a fellow witness expresses disbelief in the organization". He then proceeded to let me know over the phone that he could not associate with me anymore. To quote him "I hope you understand, but the Watchtower says . . . " I really wasn't surprised, however my wife at that time was in tears. Unlike the legalism of Jehovah's Witnesses, who put sacrifice above mercy, "a true companion is loving all the time, and is a brother that is born for when there is distress" - Proverbs 17:17 ...."
Richie :*)
You are the music as long as the music last...
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Introducing myself.

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