GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry 145 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    It is too easy to get sucked in to the wrong argument at the wrong time.

    Asking the wrong question leads to the wrong answer. A wrong answer does nobody any real good.

    I once had a heated discussion with an old friend who is still an active Jehovah's Witness.

    He came back at me with this:

    "Okay, then--if Jehovah's Organization is a false religion, where is the True one? Where do I go now? Point me to the church that

    doesn't believe in the Trinity, Hellfire, immortality of the soul, and all that other pagan crap. I challenge you."

    Stop!

    Is this the right question to ask? Is it the one you want to answer in order to be effective?

    No!

    This is merely an opportunity to GET SUCKED IN to a quicksand of unproductive nonsense.

    The reason it is quicksand is this:

    a FALSE PREMISE always leads to FALSE CONCLUSIONS.

    Once you Buy-IN to a false premise you are dead on arrival in advance of any discussion.

    The number one cause of a time wasting argument that leads nowhere is the acceptance of the FALSE PREMISE.

    Think about it this way for a minute.....

    An argument links core ideas together by connecting them the way a cook adds ingredients for a meal to make it tasty.

    An odorless and tasteless poison would not prevent the enjoyment of a meal you are about to die from would it?

    No. It would taste great and you'd push back from the table with a big fat smile on your satisfied face just before you collapsed into a coma and perished.

    False Premise at work: if it tastes great and smells wonderful it must be good!

    Wrong.

    The poison at work in any argument with Jehovah's Witnesses has nothing to do with the beauty of their logic or the tasty morsels of reasoning.

    Those are dandy.

    The poison is contained in their core premise: Scripture Interpretation.

    If you BUY the premise that somebody somewhere has possession of a message from the true God written down in a book which CAN be interpreted by just the right people-----you are already dead in the water.

    That is THE deal breaker.

    Stop right there.

    The core misrepresentation by Christianity is the message from the True God contained in that book: The Bible.

    This is planted in your head practically from birth. It is inescapable. You find it everywhere like Santa Claus at Christmas.

    THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD.

    But--hey--is it worth asking the right question about this????

    What is the right question?

    IF the True God has communicated with humanity through a book, then, WHY DIDN'T HE PRESERVE the original??

    What original?

    The original manuscripts. The Paul-sat-down-and-wrote-these-words-on-this-animal skin.

    Because---IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ORIGINALS AT ALL---then, all you have is somebody's assurance it was copied accurately.

    Note the sleight-of-hand! You now are having to trust the assurance rather than the word of God itself

    Neat trick, eh?

    If GOD did not see fit to preserve the ORIGINAL---and He didn't! Why should we trust the assurance of those who stand to gain by interpreting it for us?

    You cannot get past this foundational PREMISE.

    The original bible "books" do not exist anywhere at all on Earth because neither the apostles nor the church thought enough of them to preserve them!! That should be a staggering fact to you!

    Jesus never wrote a word of scripture. His teaching was oral.

    We are told (by others) those who heard his teachings wrote down what they knew.

    Well---DID THEY REALLY?

    How do you KNOW it?

    This is a core premise!

    You can't pass Go and collect anything if this one premise is false!

    Consider this: IF THIS PREMISE IS FALSE......then what??

    1.The Catholic Church would have to develop its religious doctrines based on the authority of men.

    2.The authority of church officials would be considered equal to that of God.

    3.The activities of the church would indicate how "divine" their connection was with the True God.

    4.All the early Christian believers would simply be groups of OPIONMAKERS who interpreted opinons of leaders they found worth listening to.

    5.Nobody could prove the superiority of one opinion ove another's without something source authority to point to for refutation.

    6.The Church would have to try and contain all the fights, arguments, disagreements and clashing orthodoxies with an OFFICIAL canon and pronouncement of right belief.

    7.The Church would have to use this official status to destroy all opposition by declaring heresey punishable by death. Counter opinion would have to be eliminated by burning documents and destroying naysayers in the harshest possible manner.

    Well--isn't this EXACTLY what history shows happened????????

    The 73 books approved and canonized by the official Christian Church did not prevent that same organization from committing foul deeds throughout the millennia. The fruits of their core premise were dastardly.

    When Martin Luther challenged Church authority and inadvertantly split Christianity yet again---the Bible was the first thing to be challenged as to authenticity!!

    Where are those 73 canonized books purported to be the true word of God?

    7 of those books were simply tossed out because they did not match Luther's ideas! So much for the message from the True God.

    For a millennia the church would kill anybody who asserted against their majesterium and tried to place Scripture ahead of official pronouncement.

    Luther put his thumb in the eye of Mother Church by asserting a NEW PREMISE.

    What was his PREMISE?

    NEW PREMISE

    1. God doesn't rule men through an Organization.

    2.Each christian uses his own bible to discover the truth of God. Sola Scriptura (the bible alone).

    Since the 16th Century the BIBLE was the new PREMISE.

    You and I--if we grew up in a non-Catholic household of Christian faith had some form of this PREMISE on our plate.

    WHAT IF THIS PREMISE IS ERROR as well??

    The right question to ask is this:

    1.Does there exist a True God who communicates with humanity through a book with no pristine original with which to compare the doctrines of men?

    2.If not--why does Christianity so much consist of opinions pretending to be revelations???

    3.Why should any of us be bound by these opinions parading as Divine "Truth?

    4. Why would any of us waste time arguing a scriptural interpretation when no scripture of any kind is provably DIVINE?

    Maybe the false premise is RELIGION.

    If we are bound into groups of opinions at war with other groups of opinions----how can humanity prosper?

    Doesn't freedom to produce a life consonant with reality begin by liberation from the false premise of interpretation of counterfeit ideas purported to be Divine?

    The Watchtower Society embraces BOTH false premises:

    1.They are an organization of men with all authority to interpret Truth and enforcement of orthodoxy

    2.They assert a non-original book to possess all the divine communication between God and man with them as the channel of interpretation.

    The WORST of both lies embodied in one false premise.

    IF there can be no True Religion from a non-preserved non-divine book interpreted at whim by fallible men with delusions of grandeur----shouldn't we be developing a core belief based on a practical understanding of the world really works??

    Food for thought.

    Terry

  • Perry
    Perry

    Premise:"IF there can be no True Religion from a non-preserved non-divine book interpreted at whim by fallible men with delusions of grandeur ----Conclusion:shouldn't we be developing a core belief based on a practical understanding of the world really works??

    If your premise is true, where would you go to find the way the world "really" works?

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze
    If your premise is true, where would you go to find the way the world "really" works?

    Reality is always a good place to start.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Premise:"IF there can be no True Religion from a non-preserved non-divine book interpreted at whim by fallible men with delusions of grandeur ----Conclusion:shouldn't we be developing a core belief based on a practical understanding of the world really works??

    If your premise is true, where would you go to find the way the world "really" works?

    Excellent question!

    Humanity has been working this out for thousands of years by trial and error and experiment. Along the way there were some imperfect false starts.

    1.Superstition

    2.Religion

    3.Philosophy

    4.Group Consensus/Government

    In Modern Times a method was produced which subjected ideas to FALSIFIABLE tests. This is called the Scientific Method.

    Nothing becomes fact unless it is tested. Further, it must be stated in such a way it is further subjected to modifications in case of new discoveries.

    Math, Physics and Science have brought forth most of the benefits to man through techology. Unfortunately, the beliefs, dogma, doctrines and ideologies held by governments and religions have turned these technologies back into weapons.

    The PRACTICAL world is the one we live in every day. Our best refutation of bad driving is in the accident we cause. An opinion of how we drive is only as good as the evidence of the successful trip ended safely.

    The same is true with our success in all other ventures. We start out with our idea of what we need to do and how we need to go about doing it. At the end of the day we look at what our actions produce and the test gives us results.

    We all are in the same constant crucible. Religion is an attempt to escape cause and effect at large by substituting BELIEF for knowledge of reality. We buy in to promises of reward on the other side of this life easing the burden of all those disproofs, car wrecks and failures.

    Reality is this: we know we have THIS life. If we have botched it with our current set of beliefs we should be very worried about our ability to choose ANYthing correctly with such a track record.

    When your head hits the pillow at night you have all the proof you need of how clear your thinking is and how your belief system works. What is the actual status of your life in this world in the here and now?

    Terry

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    When is a religion a false religion?

    That was the question a freind of mine asked me the other day.

    In simple terms I said:

    When a religion preaches a doctrine of one thing and does another, it is a false one ( not what people do, but what the "rules" tell them to do).

    EX: A religion that preaches love, tolerance, forgiveness and accepteance of our fellow man because we are, at our core, all sinners.

    That is the doctrine, but in practise that religion advocates not associating with people outside the religion ( unless you have no choice), isolation and even "shunning" of people, they advocate a conditional love based on special qualities or even deeds, they create a environment where a group is more highly favoured than another ( even though all sin), in short that do not practise what they preach.

    Another example would be basing their views on a book or document, then altering said book or document to fit their aggenda.

    I am sure there are more examples.

    Religion in of it self is not "bad", it is simply a "thing".

    It is what people do and ( even worse) allow done to themselves that is the issue.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Reality is always a good place to start.

    How do you determine reality Keyser? For instance, in the image below; is the light colored square (B) in the shadow lighter than the dark colored square (A) outside of the shadow?

    Click the image. They are the same shade. Thousands of illusions have been constructed that prove a different "reality". Our senses are not very good gauges of reality are they?

    If you put your trust in "science", say for instance the science that was thrust upon the world through the false peer review process that gave us Climate Gate Scandal; Can that be trusted?

    Haven't you all had enough of humans being the ultimate determiner of reality? I know that I personally have.

  • sir82
    sir82
    Our senses are not very good gauges of reality are they?

    And yet, aside from "cogito ergo sum", everything we "know", including words we've read in a book, comes through our senses.

  • Perry
    Perry

    sir82,

    Not true. There is a different kind of knowing, that does not enter through the 5 senses that is offered by God in Christianity.

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    Haven't you all had enough of humans being the ultimate determiner of reality? I know that I personally have.

    Oh really? So, what is the "ultimate determiner of reality" for you? Does God speak to you?

    Or do you get your information from books (written by men), at church (where the pastor is a man), and from the Bible (which is a collection of books written by men, then compiled by men, then translated by men)?

  • Perry
    Perry
    So, what is the "ultimate determiner of reality" for you? Does God speak to you?

    Of Course. God has spoken to all Christians, in their Spirit.... the communication appearing as instant knowledge.

    For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, - Rom. 8

    Would you like God to speak to you Olin so you would not have to trust your perceptions and the perceptions of others?

    Edited to Add: It really is a simple (not easy) thing to know whether or not God exists. Here's all a person has to do:

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

    Believe > Become a Son > "Talk" to God

    I did it, so can anyone.

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