GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry 145 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

garyneal

marking
sir82

Dang it, I still think this is a good question:
Yes, it is possible. But, the fruit of that influence would bear that out as true or false in due course.
Maybe Mr. Sderetgxyz is a really nice guy, but not really God.
Or maybe he's just really patient, and has a diabolical plan for you, but is being nice for the time being.
I'm still not seeing how you can know it's God and not someone / something else.
Tuesday

OK stop here:
"Okay, then--if Jehovah's Organization is a false religion, where is the True one? Where do I go now? Point me to the church that
doesn't believe in the Trinity, Hellfire, immortality of the soul, and all that other pagan crap. I challenge you."
You're essentially saying here that this is a bait and switch to turn the question on to you, but then you can't provide the answer so you're saying it's the wrong question to ask. I've gotten this probably a thousand times already, the answer I always use is.
"Well The Associated Bible Students, The Dawn Bible Students, The Second Day Adventists, The Seventh Day Adventists, and The Christadelphians are a few. But there are 33,380 different denominations of Christianity, why should I do your research for you. Are you not willing to seek out and find the true religion, do you need it all handed out to you on a silver platter?"
From there I'll usually go into a quick explanation, "What you're doing here is moving the goalposts, you're not seeking truth but you're seeking a religion that is exactly like the Jehovah's Witnesses. If I point out religions that believe in all those things, no doubt you'll find another qualifier right? "Well do they believe that there's only 144,000 going to heaven", this is based on the false premise that what Jehovah's Witnesses teach is right. Why don't you research those religions and find out WHY they don't agree with specific teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. Then you can find out what is the real truth and find the religion that fits that mold. Instead of stating that everything Jehovah's Witnesses believe is true, now I need to find a religion that fits that mold. As we've shown, there's a good chance what Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching is false.
Essentially you're making this a giant conversation when if you used the response I've outlined here it would take a minute and a half and put the ball back in their court.
Terry

You're essentially saying here that this is a bait and switch to turn the question on to you, but then you can't provide the answer so you're saying it's the wrong question to ask.
My point is the question about "which is the true religion" already assumes there is such a thing as a true religion!
You can't start with that premise and get anywhere.
Assuming such a thing is an enormous concession because it stipulates (agrees in advance) with a foundation which is unprovable.
That foundation is The Bible is a carefully preserved, accurate document of what God wants.
That is unprovable. There is no Bible in existence for us to compare today's versions with for corruption.
All such questions AUTOMATICALLY include "The Bible says" in their premise.
You cannot merely accept that without a fight!
It took me years to see the shift. Once you concede the foundational premise of THE BIBLE IS THE ACCURATE WORD OF GOD--you have given up any chance of a reasonable discussion. Why? Everybody interprets from scripture as he sees fit.
But--this acceptance of The Bible as an uncorrupt message from God is totally Bogus.
It can't be produced. Where are the original writings? How do we compare what we have today (from the Watcthtower's version to any other translation) with the "originals" if NO ORIGINALS HAVE BEEN PRESERVED?
On another thread I started I go into details.
The Catholic Church found a way to unite the Church and stop the division within Christianity for over a thousand years!
They got rid of the Bible and substituted the Majesterium of Church Authority in its place.
BECAUSE WE SAY SO----took the place of..."well the scripture seems to say...."
The Watchtower's Governing Body has finally taken the same tactic to heart.
The constant drumbeat of loyalty to the Governing Body (and not arguments over policy, dates, scriptureal interpretations) ends the BASIS for argument.
Jehovah's Witnesses have become a Majesterium like the Catholic Church before Luther.
leavingwt

That foundation is The Bible is a carefully preserved, accurate document of what God wants.
Good point.
Once I realized that the Bible is NOT a book of detailed theology, I was free from the grips of Fundamentalism.
Terry

I'll try again with Perry....
Perry, the Christian decides to believe on Jesus Christ? No.....it is the wretch who decides BEFORE conversion. That is my point.
The worthless sinner somehow makes this decision? This is not a wretch-like decision is it?
I asked the question of you:
Is it not logical that:
1. A real wretch (worthless sinner) would want an unearned free ticket from condemnation rather than justice (getting what he deserved.)
2. Logically then, the wretch comes up with his own plan: God gives him UNDESERVED GRACE!
Where does the decision to believe in Jesus Christ come from but a desire for unearned pardon? A wretch has no basis for faith or belief in and of himself. Logically then---the GRACE must be his delusional answer to his problem of death and judgement.
I asked you clearly: Is this not logical?
Terry
Terry

Consider how much censorship, book burning and reactionary revisionism went on in the early years of Christianity.
How much confidence can we have that a Supreme Being was directing this chaos?!!
It is all so primitive and knuckle-dragging behavior!
Roman authority Pre-christian approval, during Christian approval and post-Constantine seems not to have changed much.

A few tidbits from Wikipedia. (You can investigate the particulars beyond Wiki, certainly)
After Constantine:
According to scholar Elaine Pagels, "In AD 367, Athanasius, the zealous bishop of Alexandria… issued an Easter letter in which he demanded that Egyptian monks destroy all such unacceptable writings, except for those he specifically listed as 'acceptable' even 'canonical' — a list that constitutes the present 'New Testament'". [citation needed] Although Pagels cites Athanasius's Paschal letter (letter 39) for 367 AD, there is no order for monks to destroy heretical works contained in that letter. [1]
Thus, heretical texts do not turn up as palimpsests, washed clean and overwritten, as pagan ones do; many early Christian texts have been as thoroughly "lost" as if they had been publicly burnt.
Before Constantine:
Christian books were rounded up and burned by a decree of emperor Diocletian in 303, calling for an increased persecution of Christians.
During Constantine's rule:
The books of Arius and his followers were gathered up and burned after the first Council of Nicaea (325), for heresy.
After Constantine:
In 364, the Christian Emperor Jovian ordered the entire Library of Antioch to be burnt [10] . It had been heavily stocked by the aid of his non-Christian predecessor, Emperor Julian.
hemp lover

bttt, because this deserves a response.
"Perry, the Christian decides to believe on Jesus Christ? No.....it is the wretch who decides BEFORE conversion. That is my point.
The worthless sinner somehow makes this decision? This is not a wretch-like decision is it?
I asked the question of you:
Is it not logical that:
1. A real wretch (worthless sinner) would want an unearned free ticket from condemnation rather than justice (getting what he deserved.)
2. Logically then, the wretch comes up with his own plan: God gives him UNDESERVED GRACE!
Where does the decision to believe in Jesus Christ come from but a desire for unearned pardon? A wretch has no basis for faith or belief in and of himself. Logically then---the GRACE must be his delusional answer to his problem of death and judgement.
I asked you clearly: Is this not logical?"
Terry

When I was in prison (over the "neutrality" issue) during the Viet Nam war, I had conversations with felons who ranged from killers of F.B.I. agents to bank robbers as to their view of "justice."
The biggest gripe you hear from real bad guys is NOT that they are caught and punished.
Noooooooo. They understand the risks of their "profession."
The big lament that really chaps their collective ass is the ARBITRARY injustice of Justice.
Meaning what?
Some people get away with it. Some people get framed for what they didn't do. Some are prosecuted because of race. Some have slick lawyers and get a break. Poor criminals get lousy court-appointed attorneys and stiff sentence.
You see?
It is the INCONSISTENCY that gives JUSTICE a bad name---even among the criminals themselves!
JUSTICE is simply this; YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE. YOU DON'T GET WHAT YOU DON'T DESERVE.
Now that is another way of saying: FAIR.
Even a child will cry: "No fair" when somebody plays favorites or cuts slack for one child and enforces rules on another.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH GRACE.
Either Jehovah is a God of Justice who creates righteous laws and enforces those laws fairly. Or---Jehovah is like earthly law enforcement officials who indulge prejudices, whims, arbitrary enforcements and bribes.
Which is it?
Does a world of sinners, wretches and reprobates deserve Justice? Or, does Jehovah excuse "criminals" on a whim "because he loves them?"
On what possible basis does a righteous God "LOVE" a worthless wretch?
This is why endless variations of GRACE doctrines have been invented and debated over the millennia. The injustice of it requires a tortured doctrinal statement to make it sound feasible.
MAN'S FREE WILL as a worthless wretch of a sinner has to------somehow-----premit him to PLACE FAITH in Jesus Christ!
While he is yet corrupt, low and in the clutches of Satan's diabolical influence, man simply CHOOSES Jesus Christ as his savior!
Check this out. Two separate and equally ridiculously illogical propositions inside the same doctrine.
THIS PREMISE seems to simply be overlooked as to its merit as the underpinning of Christian Evangelism.
It is illogical, unjust, arbitrarily enforced and obviously invented by people who crave something for nothing.
This is what I mean by: GETTING SUCKED IN and not asking the right questions.
On what basis could a Just God abandon Justice without self-repudiating every previous judgement against mankind from the destruction of Noah's day to the holocaust against Sodom and Gomorrah?
That's the question worth asking.
startingover

Too bad Perry had to leave the building on this thread. I would have like to seen his response.

GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

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