DISHONEST debates and discussions are everywhere!

by Terry 24 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Wow, I could have wrote that if I weren't so busy being pissed about people who don't see the world as I do.

  I really believe this, and I thank you Terry. I think my age and maturity (I am all of 35) get in the way of me being more accepting sometimes. I don't know why (truthfully) that political threads in particular get to me. Granted, we all have our list of ideologies that once adopted, make us @$$holes in the eyes of some.

  And that is the point. Does the fact that a person holds a polarizing, opposite ideology, or religious belief (aka, lack therof) to yours make that person your enemy?

  For the sake of intelligent discussion, does the fact that a liberal jackass or a conservative jackass is debating you make the liberal or conservative arguement less compelling?

  I know sometimes I look at what I write and get pissed that I get upset, and let it out. I always say for example that BTS and I would proabably enjoy a good beer together, esp if Olbermann or Beck isn't on the TV. (you know that made you laugh BTS)

  Terry, the best thing you said is that you have to be willing to be wrong to be honest.

  I wonder, no, I don't wonder, I am pretty certain, that being a former JW, and having certitude as a form fitting piece of the JW uniform we had to put on, makes us a bit confrontational.

  Think about it. We are used to at least saying we are right. To some degree, surface or deep, we all believed it. We have for the most part, moved on religiously, but are the attitudes still there? Are we honest enough to admit that if we really listened deeply to the other side, we might be influenced, even change our minds? And would changing our minds and being (really) humble be something too much to swallow?

  I commented on this in a thread I started a little while back: From a Know It All Religion to a Simple Know it All.

  I fear at times I have regressed. Not that I am voting Republican in 2010. But, maybe I should be willing to be influenced by others, esp if they are willing to do the same.

  Good thoughts Terry.
• 

  Terry

  I'm a big fan of the mega-ego Trial lawyers Gerry Spence and F.Lee Bailey.

  The oratory skills of each of those fellows is a real education in rhetoric.

  But, they both possess the ability to listen laser-like to what a hostile witness says in a way that reveals even the most

  microscopic weakness.

  For me, the hardest skill to learn is listening and organizing what is said from the bottom up. It all starts with the premise.

  Any argument can be made logical, but, if the premise is flawed so will the conclusion be.
• 

  poppers

  People don't listen when you talk to them. Ever notice that?

  The silence while you are speaking isn't listening. The other guy is just waiting for his turn .

  This is so true. A major problem is that people don't know how to "turn off" the thought stream and just listen in an open and innocent way, and instead search their memory bank to see what does and does not match up with currently held beliefs. Most people don't really consciously live in the present moment because they are so identified with their thinking, which is based on past ideas that are clung to. Instead of being consciously present and open to something new they are unconsciously reactive and confined by past ideas that have become absorbed into their identity structure. To yield to a new idea is like a kind of ego death, because if "I no longer believe this (whatever that may be) then who am I?"
• 

  TD

  Any argument can be made logical, but, if the premise is flawed so will the conclusion be.

  Surprisingly, you can actually arrive at a true conclusion with one or more false premises.

  A. All fish live in the ocean

  B. Whales are fish

  Therefore whales live in the ocean

  Premise B is false, but the conclusion is true.

  Sometimes the conclusion can still be true if the only premise is wrong.

  Take the fraction 16/64. Removing a 6 from the top and a 6 from the bottom will give you 1/4

  That's not the way to reduce fractions, but the answer is still correct.
• 

  SixofNine

  That's not the way to reduce fractions

  well it's a great way to reduce that one ;-D