Slightly off-topic, but I thought Pentacostals reject the Trinity and believe in Modalism?
Christopher Hitchens Interviewed by Unitarian Minister Marilyn Sewell
by leavingwt 36 Replies latest jw friends
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villabolo
Leavingwt, Wikipedia states that "Oneness Pentecostalism" does believe in Modalism. A quick Google on "Pentecostals Trinity" shows that there is a large divergence of opinion with some members of each group damning the other. The Pentecostals I've known where Trinitarians. The following link might help.
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/onenessvtrinity.html
villabolo Three in One.
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Perry
Villabolo,
That is what I mean by exclusivism, dogmatism (don't tell me they won't damn a non-Trinitarian),
Christians can't damn anybody. When I taught an eight week course on bible cults at my church, I made sure all my Fundamental Baptist students (most far older than I ) understood that when I became a believer I did not believe in the Trinity. I also did not disbelieve it. I withheld judgment on the mater. No one batted an eye hardly.
Non-Trinitarians cannot support their view biblically or doctrinally. How can the believer be inhabited by a creature? Christ lives in us. Eventually, a person will have to come to terms with the inconsistencies in denying the trinity, deity of Christ etc.
Having said that, if a person came to me and told me that they had walked with the Lord for many years and they denied the Trinity. THEN, this is a testimony contrary to that that was first delivered unto the saints. "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God". If a person does not ever bring this testimony, he is not a child of God and is not a Christian by definition.
I can personally testify that part of this bearing witness that the Holy Spirit does to the believers spirit is the authority of that personality as God, and also Jesus as God, and also Jehovah as God.
If a person does not have this internal witnes after walking with the Lord for a while.... say a couple of years at most, he is not a child of God and is probably deluded. Of course a person may not know whether or not he has this witness at which time he can simply ask God to make his membership into Gods family known to him. Be prepared for an answer when you ask this.
If the answer is no. The person must seek God's guidance as to what is blocking the ratification of the NT Blood Covenant on his behalf. Rest assured that all who ask are received:
John 5:24 - He who hears my word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life
In my short experience so far as a Christian, if there is a problem it is generally in the area of what actually constitutes belief. But I digress.
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besty
But, then, show me what there is, ethically, in any religion that can’t be duplicated by Humanism.
Try Results
What do you mean Perry? Your answer seems made for a different question to the one posed.
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Perry
Betsy,
I am a simple business man who only acheived an 8th grade education. I smoked dope as a way to deal with the WT all of my teenage years. Yet, I've founded several multi-million dollar companies over the years. I don't say this to brag, it is rather tragic in fact. Up and down. I say this to prove that what I lacked in education I had to make up in practical applications. Due to extreme ignorance, I could never afford to get emotionally attached to an idea or business model....because I was never taught any. Successful business from the hip, is about getting real. With that, I do have an education.
Yes, the Humanist can imagine every conceivable moral construct that the Christian can. So what? This doesn't mean that he'll be any closer to acheiving that ideal any more successfull than the failed do-gooders at the Kingdom Halls.
At age 23, I gave up sin and told God that I'd be his idiot and become a Witness. I believe God honored that sacrifice, and took away most of my sin. But without Christ, and the Holy Spirit - sin gradually crept back into my life, until finally after 8 years I was just a hypocrit like the others at which time I initiated my fade.
So, getting real here: Giving myself over to the destructive power of sin was corrosive, trying to be good as a Witness decayed, so it made no difference: not caring or caring had the same effect. I didn't work.
Sin is destructive, on that we are all agreed. (Call it ethics I don't really care) Morality is a very useful tool to combat it's destructiveness, that we all also agree. But so what, it doesn't work. Man can imagine, yes....but cannot do.
When I came to God at age 40, I told him that I was no longer going to try to be good. I told him that I was not going to go out of my way to sin, but that I was his problem and that he could do with me what he wanted...I didn't care.
I was born again. There now resides inside of me a "weak" force that cannot sin. Delusions of ethicalness, or righteousness (whatever you want to call it) no longer needed. I got the real thing. Sin has lost it's power over me. I do good now, not because I am trying, it comes natural. I cannot even begin to tell you what a relief that is.
Where's the testimonies like that from the humanists? Show me the money.
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designs
Perry, historians can 'testify' to the massively destructive and corrupt dealings when the Trinitarians took over Christianity. Not a pretty picture but it is there for all to see, your group's history.
That said we humans can be good, egalitarian, generous, liars, crooks no matter what Belief system we hold to. Those who have determined to view life through Agnostic and Atheistic lens can be as descent as any Theist. No one and no group has a lock on being good, we all can make those determinations for ourselves.
'do a little good each day'
Shalom aleichem
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Perry
Perry, historians can 'testify' to the massively destructive and corrupt dealings when the Trinitarians took over Christianity. Not a pretty picture but it is there for all to see, your group's history.
Not my group designs. Some identify with the martyrs, some identify with those who lit the fires. I identify with the latter. You already know this.
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designs
The Protestants were just as destructive, (your group's historical ties). Hell George Bush hired an Evangelical Army to do the dirty work around the world. Blackwater the modern Crusaders.
Born Again Smorg again what a travisty they brought on the name of a good Jew.
'Do a little good each day'.
Shalom aleichem
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besty
I was born again. There now resides inside of me a "weak" force that cannot sin. Delusions of ethicalness, or righteousness (whatever you want to call it) no longer needed. I got the real thing. Sin has lost it's power over me. I do good now, not because I am trying, it comes natural. I cannot even begin to tell you what a relief that is.
Like all new born babies are born atheists, you describe a return to the natural state of goodness.
I hope you continue to steer clear of religion, which as we both know, poisons everything.
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Perry
Correction:
Some identify with the martyrs, some identify with those who lit the fires. I identify with the latter.
I meant to write "the former".
designs,
I am neither Catholic or Protestant. The 50 million Christians that were murdered weren't Catholic or Protestant either. Most of Christian history has been lost...but not all of it.
betsy,
Like all new born babies are born atheists, you describe a return to the natural state of goodness.
Have to disagree, Humanism is a religion or an ideology and there has never been an historical society or community observed without a religion.....ever. But, yes children are the way God wants us to approach him. There is a purity there...not perfection though. Lots more honesty.
I hope you continue to steer clear of religion, which as we both know, poisons everything.
Much truth here. I would reccommend the biblical model. Small congregations, local government, no heiarchy except deacons and pastors who are elected to serve only, and who are roundly booted if they lord it over.