God and Suffering (page 28)

Perry

ATJ claims:

What you don't get is that I AM NOT A SINNER

Looks like you brought your WT elder qualifications with you when you left.

Perry

Super punk,

You are welcome to address the logic of the biblical explanation. What are your thoughts on that?

superpunk

Super punk,
You are welcome to address the logic of biblical explanation. What are your thoughts on that?

If I told you, I would have to kill you.

Perry

Superpunk ventures:

I just weigh the evidence, and say "Either God hates us, he has no power, he isn't real, or he doesn't care."

1. God Hates us:

Of course he doesn't. God so loved the world [his enemies] that He gave his only begotten Son to die in our place.

2. God has no power:

The universe alone and the fine tuning it requires to even exist nixes this:

The constants of the laws of physics have been finely tuned to a degree not possible through human engineering. Five of the more finely tuned numbers are included in the table below. For comments about what scientists think about these numbers, see the page Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe

Parameter	Max. Deviation
Ratio of Electrons:Protons	1:10 37
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity	1:10 40
Expansion Rate of Universe	1:10 55
Mass of Universe1	1:10 59
Cosmological Constant	1:10 120
These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

3. He isn't real

See # 2 and the millions of born again Christians who testify that he actively lives inside them

4. He doesn't care

See answers to #'s 1,2 & 3

So as a biblical believer I ask my non-believer friends; Why is the only possibility that is consistently ignored on this thread the biblical proposition that:

Man in his current condition is God's enemy because of our moral condition. Therefore, He is under no obligation to be nice to his enemies, especially those that refuse to accept rehabilitation through the re-birth that was purchased with "HIS OWN BLOOD".

I mean it's not like we don't have plenty of circumstantial evidence to support this. (Excluding ATJ of course). Most any other scenario places God as one who poisons his children like AK-Jeff posited and places Christians who believe in such a God as child poisoners as well.

I mean if you non-believers really believe your own rhetoric, how can you justify not doing everything you possibly can to rid the world of all Christians who poison their children like the God you claim is theirs?

On the other hand, if Christians really believe that sin is the culprit, and that we are UNDER OBLIGATION to love our enemies the way that God loved us, then how can (some) Christians justify sitting back and not declaring all the good things that God saved them from and the peace that they now enjoy?

Surely living authentically is worth the effort and if you are not authentic, what is your life worth?

VoidEater

PSac: You again make me increase my respect for you.

While we may have different ideas on some things, you always present yourself with integrity and charm.

Cheers!

leavingwt

PSac: You again make me increase my respect for you.

While we may have different ideas on some things, you always present yourself with integrity and charm.

Cheers!

I agree!

BurnTheShips

We do NOT KNOW what God is, we can TRY to understand what he MAY be, but we hardly undersdtand the world we live in, much less the universe and so, much less God.

We stand, in a manner of speaking, midway between the unpredictability of atoms and the unpredictability of God.

We can't predict what a single atom will do. All we can offer is probabilities. If we cannot do this with the very least of things, how can we presume with the greatest?

BTS

The Finger

I dont mean to sound callous, but we all die and all suffering only ever exists in our heads. (take away our senses and there is no suffering) God has provided a way out of suffering and death through the sacrifice of his son. Who wants to lose a child for ones enemies which we all became with the sin of Adam.

AK - Jeff

I must state, having been away from my keyboard for a day, that the exchange between Psac and Superpunk has been pleasant to read. I have gained tremendous respect for both of you as a result.

I do find it a bit troubling, Psac, that your somewhat unique approach to God [via Jesus] has created a convenient construct [and as much as that term seems to imply sarcasm, I honestly do not intend that here] for avoidance of the OT God largely. I do believe, that for you, it works, though. I am also not denying the possibility that, in your mind, it is fully satisfying, as that comes through in your comments.

I am curious, though. Since in your experience, relationship with God came first [or perhaps Jesus], then later the Bible, not as guide to God, but as what? Do you, in this position, believe then that the OT can be discounted, that the NT can be viewed in much the same way as a stand alone sequel? That the story line can be fully separated from the OT account of Genesis for instance? How can this be reconciled?

My time wanes to continue this line of thought - My ears are perked, but I must scurry to my obligations at work.

Jeff

AllTimeJeff

Just to weigh in on PSac approach.

I obviously don't agree with PSac's beliefs per se. On the other hand, I can easily respect it, as others here have brought out. And it is a lot closer to what I would believe were I a Christian. PSac at least acknowledges the problems of suffering, he has his own conclusion on it, and most refreshingly for me, this conclusion is for himself. It's personal. To me, thats how it should be. In addition, PSac doesn't begrudge anyone their own beliefs. To me, it would be grand if Christianity evolved to PSac's views instead of stay stagnant.

When I debate theism in the abstract, I personally believe that we all need to be careful in what we are deconstructing, as well as why. Superpunk, I really enjoy your posts always, just very logical and respectful. I agree with most of your premises.

To me, there is a BIG difference between debating group faith and personal faith. To that, Perry and PSac both speak from their personal faith. The difference to me is that PSac is respectful and non dogmatic. Perry's views are not. PSac allows for my own path, and everyone else here. Perry believes in a god that will destroy us all eventually, since we are born sinners and thus merit the suffering that we are experiencing right now, unless of course, we accept Jesus.

I won't debate much with a sincere theist who has their own personal faith and that means a lot to them. Why would I want to take that away from someone?

PSac, as long as you don't shove your god down my throat, you and I are good bro. Thanks for not condemning me as part of your belief system.

Having said that, AKJeff's and SuperPunk have made great points that I don't think are easily answered by anyone's version of theism. It's tough, wish God would do something about it, you know?

God and Suffering

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