Identifying Michael the ArchAngel!

by wannabe 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • wannabe
    wannabe

    Identifying Michael The Arch-Angel!

    Many today, do not believe that Michael the Archangel and the Christ are one and the same person. Of course, that is understandable, because it never directly states in the Bible, that they are. Conversely, it never directly states that they are not either. So, we are left with using the evidence supplied in the Holy Writings to prove whether they are, or, whether they are not. It's really not what others believe, or feel they have proven to themselves, about any scriptural matter. Each individual, is to prove to themselves alone, about the truth of any matter. No one can prove to anyone else, anything about the Bible. Each individual is under obligation to prove it first, to themselves alone, and then, as opportunity presents itself, pass that knowledge on to others. Whether they believe it or not, is their exclusive right, as long as you have tried to fulfill your obligations. Nothing more can be asked of them, or you.

    We might now look at what the Apostle Paul has to say about this matter. That will aid us greatly:

    2 "Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [FOR YOURSELVE] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight FOR YOU]." {Romans 12:2 AB}

    With Paul's Words in mind, I'll now proceed to prove to myself, whether Jesus and Michael are the same person, or not. Gathering of course the scriptural information supplied to do that proving.

    I feel it's only fair to keep in mind, that before Jesus arrived on this earth, he himself was one of God's glorious Angels. He actually told us that himself, at John 17:5 where he made this prayer to his Father:

    5 "And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed." {John 17:5 AB}

    23 "You are from below," He told them, "I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." {John 8:23 HCSB}

    62 "Then what if you were to observe the Son of Man ascending to where He was fore?" {John 6:62 HCSB}

    No one can argue the position Jesus held before he came to this earth. That is well substantiated by scripture, and by Jesus own words. He was quite definitely an Angel. As such, he would have had to have a name, to identify him as such. Just as the Angel Gabriel had a name. {Luke 1:19} Now, we must learn if we can in some way connect both Jesus and Michael together, that will show they are one and the same person.

    After the ascension of Jesus, it would have been true what he had stated just prior to his ascension, in Matthew 28:18, worded thusly:

    18 "Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."{Mattghew 28:18 HCSB} This all authority gets even better:

    6 "When He again brings His firstborn into the world, He says, And all God's angels must worship Him." {Hebrews 1:6 HCSB}

    22 "Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God's right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to Him." {1 Peter 3:22 HCSB} Excuse the expression, but who do you believe is the head Honcho in the Spirit realm now? God's right - hand Man, correct? Does this authority extend of Jesus extend any further?:

    9 "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father." {Philippians 2: 9-11 NIV}

    To get any higher than Jesus is now, you would have to be Jehovah God, himself! No way is any, higher than he is!

    So, who would hold power over every Angel in the Spirit Realm? Who would hold the Authority to judge any of them were that to become necessary, and, of course, it does:

    22 "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."{John 5:22,23 NIV}

    So, the Son holds that Authority, correct? All Judgment commited to him as it is? Who was the one foretold to deliver a fatal head-wound to satan the devil, who would hate one another:?

    15 "I will put hostility between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and her seed.
    He will strike your head,and you will strike his heel." {Genesis 3:15 HCSB} Who was the seed of the Woman? The one delivering this fatal head-wound? Paul will answer that for us:

    16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ." {Galatians 3:16 HCSB}

    So, this one with All Authority; with power of judging, would be the one to deliver satan this fatal head-wound; but, just prior to that though, he would oust him from the Heavenly Spirit Realm, in a War he is assigned to fight, as we might expect him to, since he holds All Authority,and possesses the power to Judge. John explains his power and position of a righteous Judge in the following words:

    11 "Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rideris called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war." {Revelation 19:11 HCSB}

    This Faithful and true Rider is none other than the Christ, as John will show next:

    4 "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;

    5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;

    6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen."{Revelation 1:4-6 ASV}

    That tells us all that it is Jesus who fights this righteous War, because it is Jesus who is the faithful and true witness judging and making War. Where does this righteous War begin? Where we might expect at this time. At what time? John once again will explain that, but don't be hasty while reading this passage through for it reveals a great deal:

    7"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

    10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Christ.
    For the accuser of our brothers,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.
    11They overcame him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.
    12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!
    But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
    He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

    13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child." {Revelation 12:7-13 NIV}

    Did you notice? This War takes place at the same time God's Kingdom is Born. His Heavenly Woman has at last bore the Male Child. Borne out in verse 13- Then it tells us the Christ has now exercised his Authority, and thrown satan and his pals down to earth. Verse 10-

    Then it's woe for the earth and for the sea, because the devil has come down to you having great anger. Producing the greatest Tribulation this World has ever seen or will see again. So bad it would have to be cut short by massive divine intervention. Daniel foretold this time period; for look at what he predicted:

    1"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book." {Daniel 12:1 ESV}

    Prior to making this statement Daniel had observed the destruction of the last ruling World Power to be on this earth, and he saw it destroyed completely. The only other Ruling Aurthority that was to come was God's Kingdom, and he saw Michael standing up taking that Ruling Athority. Michael could not have been anyone else but Christ Jesus, because Jesus was the foretold reigning King of God's Kingdom.

    Strong's Dictionary throws a lttle light on this subject, about Michael Standing Up. That is if any more proof is needed!

    01-28-08 / Stand ( ??? amad, Strong's #5975): This verb means "to stand" but can be used in a wide variety of applications such as, to be erect or upright, to remain or maintain in the sense of standing in one place or to establish or appoint in the sense of being stood in a position. The noun form, amud

    [str:5982], is a pillar which stands firm and tall. Both the verb and noun form can be found in Exodus 14:19-and the pillar (amud) of the cloud went from before their face, and stood (amad) behind them.Wannabe

  • JWoods
    JWoods
    it never directly states in the Bible, that they are.

    There. I edited all that down to something understandable and factual.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Where does the Bible state that before coming to earth Jesus was one of God's glorious angels? You shot yourself down right there- 'one of' indicates there are other like. The organization itself teaches that Jesus is the unique son of God. All your other points have previously been addressed in other threads.

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze

    I think Steve Irwin and John Denver were the same person. Did anyone ever see them in the same room at the same time?

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff
    Many today, do not believe that Michael the Archangel and the Christ are one and the same person. Of course, that is understandable, because it never directly states in the Bible, that they are. Conversely, it never directly states that they are not either. So, we are left with using the evidence supplied in the Holy Writings to prove whether they are, or, whether they are not. It's really not what others believe, or feel they have proven to themselves, about any scriptural matter. Each individual, is to prove to themselves alone, about the truth of any matter. No one can prove to anyone else, anything about the Bible. Each individual is under obligation to prove it first, to themselves alone, and then, as opportunity presents itself, pass that knowledge on to others. Whether they believe it or not, is their exclusive right, as long as you have tried to fulfill your obligations. Nothing more can be asked of them, or you.

    Wannabe, this is mostly reasonable of you. Just like JW's, and other religions, you have a take on who Michael the Archangel is. You say it is up to us what we believe.

    Yet you say that we have an obligation to prove it to ourselves first.

    So that means, that I am obligated to consider the possibility that Michael the Archangel is real and that since he isn't identified I have to take what, your clues? JW's? The Moonies?

    Christians always say "Are you sure that you haven't really given it a chance? The bible?"

    Yup, I have, so this commentary, speaking for me, is wrong. Jesus might very well be a historical figure of note, but Michael the Archangel has more in common with Woody Woodpecker then oh, say, Ronald Reagan.

    Anyway, deconstructing JW dogma and replacing it with your own ideas doesn't seem to me to be the most productive use of time. Of course, it is Presidents day. Good luck!

  • wannabe
    wannabe

    Isaacaustin!

    "And now you Father Glorify me alongside your self with the Glory I had alongside you before the World Was." John 17:5 That good enough for you, or would you like Jesus to tell you that personally? Hey! Ask Him! Maybe he will! Wannabe

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Where does it say angel?

    My question to you- With whom does God share his glory? The OT states no one. Now go read Isaiah 6 and see whose glory Isaiah saw? In John 12:40 whose glory did Isaiah see? Jesus statement in Jh 17- What does this say about Jesus? I will not be back till tomorrow.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Hey Issac! Long time no see. Did you notice a prophet has risen among us again?

    I don't know how long Jesus will take to execute judgment, but its been 2000 years? Can someone tell him to hurry up please? Or will I be the latest batch to "miss it by thaaat much"?

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    for your convenience wannabe:

    Is 6:

    1 In the year that King Uz·zi´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3 And this one called to that one and said: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.

    5 And I proceeded to say: “Woe to me! For I am as good as brought to silence, because a man unclean in lips I am, and in among a people unclean in lips I am dwelling; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”

    6 At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. 7 And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: “Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.”

    8 And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I proceeded to say: “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”

    Whose glory did Isaiah see?

    John 12

    36 While YOU have the light, exercise faith in the light, in order to become sons of light.”

    Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.

    Whose glory does it say Isaiah saw?

    Jesus emptied himself when he came to earth and became a man. Now you have John 17 in its proper place, hopefully.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Hey ATJ, been superbusy lately. How have you been?

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