What happens when you die?

by AGuest 97 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  To the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... may you have peace!

  A week or so ago I ran across a post asking what happens when we die. I had meant to respond then, but got distracted and then could not find the post again. Recently, another asked me the same question and I shared what I was given on the matter with them. I believe I have shared it here before, long ago (as well on the predecessor forum, H20), but will now share it again... for those who are wondering was does happen. It was given to me in a vision:

  In the vision, I was standing with our Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, outside of what seemed to be a large "picture" window. My Lord took my hand and together we stepped UP... into the "window." Initially, I couldn't see anything - the view was opaque and the color of, well, dirt. Brown, dusty looking. As we went further "in", however, the view began to become clearer until eventually I could see that we were in some kind of a huge cave. HUGE. Although I couldn't see it... I could FEEL that it went back for some distance. Miles. I could also feel that the cave wasn’t empty.

  As we continued and the view became clearer, I came to see that the cave… well, actually, caves (others opened off the first, then others off those)… were filled… from floor to ceiling… with bones. Skeletons. Some intact, with skulls attached, some scattered. But there were gazillions of them… as high as I could see and as far as I could see. And they all appeared to be dead… no, unconscious. Deeply a sleep. My Lord stopped and so I stopped.

  Here, though, is where the vision got interesting:

  As we stood there, I realized I could FEEL someone looking at me. As I thought about that, the view became even clearer and could see that all of the skulls were now staring at me. They had awaken and could see me. And they knew I could see them… and see them looking at me. But I wasn’t afraid… and neither were they. Their stare was not one of anger or menace, but of curiosity.

  At that moment, I realized they were kind of asking something, a collective “is this it?” I also realized, however, that although they asked the question, they didn’t know what the “it” was. They were asking if the thing they had been waiting for had now arrived – but they didn’t know what the thing they were waiting for was.

  I then came to understand that this was all they could do: ask the question. But they couldn’t form any other thought, such as WHAT it was they were waiting for. That was because they didn’t have enough LIFE in them to do so! They could, however, form one other thought and that was, no, this was NOT “it”… and immediately upon realizing that, they all fell back asleep. They didn't know what "it" was... but they knew I wasn't "it."

  It was then that I understood what is meant by the statement, “The dead are conscious of nothing.” These were only conscious of two things: that my arrival might be the “it” they were waiting for… and that it was not. Other than that, they had no consciousness of anything. Anything here… anything there… anything that took place before… and, other than whether “it” had arrived and had not… anything of what was taking place then. Nothing else.

  They only had enough life in them to wake up, ask the question, realize the answer, then sleep again. They were not suffering. They were not in pain. They were not mourning. They were not rejoicing. They were sleeping. Deeply.

  Then I realized that I could FEEL the presence of other “dead”… their spirits… but such were not in this place. They were in a place that was… ummm… “higher” (not as in height, but as in plane, dimension… consciousness). They, too, existed, but not here. It was then that my Lord revealed to me that the others were “under the altar”… or in a place of protection (i.e., away from the grasp of their enemies) with God. They, too, were sleeping, but when awakened had a bit more consciousness (i.e., they knew that being avenged was part of what they were waiting for).

  But in both places NONE were suffering, NONE were burning, NONE were being tormented, punished, or tortured. There was no pain. There was no mourning. There was no outcry. Yet, there was no laughter, no song, no rejoicing, either. No joy. And certainly, n o life... at least, not enough to call life.

  Some would argue how can this be, given the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Did not that Man ask for a drop of water to cool his burning tongue? He did. But that account has the Rich Man at the point BEFORE he passes over to the World of the Dead… Sheol (which is were I was taken)… where, when he arrives, he does nothing more than sleep. The Man didn’t ask for a drop of water to cool his tongue because he was burning. He asked because it is a VERY dry place: there was NO WATER [of life] there. No holy spirit whatsoever. The only bit of “life” is such that those there can wake up, ask, realize the answer is no (at that time), then fall asleep again. Which takes what amount of life? A mere drop. That is why Ezekiel wrote of the DRY bones in his vision – there was NO water of life in those bones… no spirit of God… no holy spirit.

  I was given this vision these years ago for a purpose: some were wondering and FEARFUL about what happens to us… to our loved ones… when we die. The answer? We sleep. Simply, purely, and truthfully. Until the time comes that we are resurrected… either in the First Resurrection (for those under the altar, who belong to Christ)… or in the Second Resurrection (for the “rest of the dead”).

  For those who fear dying… or are concerned for those who have died, that they may be suffering somewhere… I hope this helps. It is not the death of the body that we should be concerned about: it is destruction of the body AND THE SPIRIT that is the issue.

  I bid you peace.

  Servant to the Household of God, Israel… those who go with… and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  In the vision, I was standing with The Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Holy One, outside of what seemed to be a large "picture" window. The Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU) took my hand and together we stepped UP... into the "window." Initially, I couldn't see anything - the view was opaque and the color of, well, dirt. Brown, dusty looking. As we went further "in", however, the view began to become clearer until eventually I could see that we were in some kind of a huge cave. HUGE. Although I couldn't see it... I could FEEL that it went back for some distance. Miles. I could also feel that the cave wasn’t empty.

  As we continued and the view became clearer, I came to see that the cave… well, actually, caves (others opened off the first, then others off those)… were filled… from floor to ceiling… with dragons, flying saucers, Big Foots (or is that Big Feets?), the Loch Ness Monster, and various elves and leprichauns with their pots of gold..

  Here, though, is where the vision got interesting:

  As we stood there, I realized I could FEEL someone looking at me. As I thought about that, the view became even clearer and could see that all of the fictional/mythical creatures were now staring at me. But I wasn’t afraid… and neither were they. Their stare was not one of anger or menace, but of curiosity.

  It was then that I understood that to some people, these things are just as real as the belief in life after death. Why, some people don't even believe in the holiest IPU and accept the reality that “The dead are conscious of nothing.”

  Some would argue using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Others will argue using movies like POLTERGEIST or GHOST. Some will say that they saw CASPER THE FRIENDLY GHOST when they were kids, and know there is life after death. Yet others will say that if there is not life after death, then what were the GHOSTBUSTERS actually doing?

  I was given this vision for a purpose: I just cannot remember that purpose.

  I bid you peace.
• 

  OUTLAW

  Shelby..

  I swear..

  Some of your posts would make for a frigg`in good movie..

  LOL!!..

  I just have to ask..

  What are all those sleeping skeletons waiting for?..

  And..

  What is "IT"?

  ....................... ...OUTLAW
• 

  notverylikely

  If they were sleeping, how could they ask a question?
• 

  Chalam

  Hello Shelby,

  With this verse in mind I think we need to test your prophetic vision

  1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 (New International Version)

  20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

  And also this one

  Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

  12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

  It was then that I understood what is meant by the statement, “The dead are conscious of nothing.” These were only conscious of two things: that my arrival might be the “it” they were waiting for… and that it was not. Other than that, they had no consciousness of anything. Anything here… anything there… anything that took place before… and, other than whether “it” had arrived and had not… anything of what was taking place then. Nothing else.

  Test One

  Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)

  5 For the living know that they will die,
  but the dead know nothing;
  they have no further reward,
  and even the memory of them is forgotten.

  6 Their love, their hate
  and their jealousy have long since vanished;
  never again will they have a part
  in anything that happens under the sun.

  The WT love to quote verse 5 in isolation, especially the second phrase "but the dead know nothing".

  However, taken in context with the very next verse "in anything that happens under the sun" the phrase's true meaning becomes apparent.

  The dead are conscious of nothing of anything that happens under the sun i.e. here on earth.

  When Jesus returns sunlight will be finished because the Light has come Isaiah 60:1 Matthew 24:29 Revelation 6:12 Revelation 21:23

  Test Two

  They, too, existed, but not here. It was then that my Lord revealed to me that the others were “under the altar”… or in a place of protection (i.e., away from the grasp of their enemies) with God. They, too, were sleeping, but when awakened had a bit more consciousness (i.e., they knew that being avenged was part of what they were waiting for).

  Luke 23:43 (New International Version)

  43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

  2 Corinthians 5:6-9 (New International Version)

  6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

  Philippians 1:20-22 (New International Version)

  20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

  Corinthians 12:1-6 (New International Version)

  Paul's Vision and His Thorn

  1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. I do not see any "place of protection" in the bible, unless you mean paradise or third heaven as Paul describes it? Neither do I read of any hint of being "a bit more conscious". Clearly Paul was conscious when he was in heaven receiving revelations from Jesus. Notice that James writes

  James 2:26 (New International Version)

  26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  However, he does not write that "the spirit is dead without the body"! If not, how could Paul or the thief be "away from the body" yet "gain" in paradise?

  Test Three

  But in both places NONE were suffering, NONE were burning, NONE were being tormented, punished, or tortured. There was no pain. There was no mourning. There was no outcry. Yet, there was no laughter, no song, no rejoicing, either. No joy. And certainly, no life... at least, not enough to call life.

  Some would argue how can this be, given the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Did not that Man ask for a drop of water to cool his burning tongue? He did. But that account has the Rich Man at the point BEFORE he passes over to the World of the Dead… Sheol (which is were I was taken)… where, when he arrives, he does nothing more than sleep. The Man didn’t ask for a drop of water to cool his tongue because he was burning. He asked because it is a VERY dry place: there was NO WATER [of life] there. No holy spirit whatsoever. The only bit of “life” is such that those there can wake up, ask, realize the answer is no (at that time), then fall asleep again. Which takes what amount of life? A mere drop. That is why Ezekiel wrote of the DRY bones in his vision – there was NO water of life in those bones… no spirit of God… no holy spirit.

  Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)

  The Rich Man and Lazarus

  19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

  22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, [ a ] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

  25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

  27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

  29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

  30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

  31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

  Footnotes:

  1. Luke 16:23 Greek Hades

  There is nothing in this passage to support your view that this occured "BEFORE he passes over to the World of the Dead". On the contrary, verse 22 says both we already dead and in their abodes, see also verses 30,31.

  Your view that the torment is temporary directly contradicts the very words of Jesus Himself and the prophets.

  Matthew 25:46 (New International Version)

  46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

  Mark 9:47-48 (New International Version)

  47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
  " 'their worm does not die,
  and the fire is not quenched.'

  Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)

  10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  Jude 1:7 (New International Version)

  7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

  Also, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, hence David writes this

  Psalm 139:7-8 (English Standard Version)

  7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
  Or where shall I flee from your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
  If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

  I do not know your history of faith, I assume you are a former JW? If so, it seems clear that false JW doctrines are still lingering IMHO.

  Anyhow, I would be interested to hear you thoughts, especially supported with scripture!

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Outlaw (peace to you!)... the "it is resurrection.

  Dearest NVL (peace to you, as well!)... they only woke up enough to ask the question, realize the my being there was "it"... and then they fell to sleep again.

  I am now off the respond to dear Stephen, my Lord permitting me!

  Peace to you both!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Brocephus

  I'll let you know when it happens. Might be a while (I hope)
• 

  AGuest

  Hello Shelby,

  Greetings, dear Stephen... and peace to you!

  With this verse in mind I think we need to test your prophetic vision

  1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 (New International Version)

  20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

  The word of my Lord to you, dear Chalam, is test away! However, I am to exhort you to keep in mind HOW we are to test inspired expressions... and that at the time this particular verse was penned (believed to have been c. 50) the only other books of the NT in existence was Matthew's gospel account (believed to have been written c. 41) and possibly the letter to the Galatians (believed to have been penned somewhere between c. 50-52). In addition, other than the Revelation and John's gospel account, none of the NT is scripture. Be all of that as it may, certainly - let's continue, shall we?

  Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

  12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

  Indeed, t is on the basis of what this verse says that I shared what I did. God's Word (Revelation 19:13) IS alive (Revelation 1:18). And he IS active (Matthew 28:20). That sword protrudes from HIS mouth (Revelation 19:15)... and it is HE that can see between a man's flesh (soul) and spirit... joints and marrow... for it is HE that judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart (John 2:25). And it was he who gave me the vision. So, I have no doubt about it. But that's me...

  So, okay, to Test One. You quote Ecclesiastes 9:5-6:

  5 For the living know that they will die,
  but the dead know nothing;
  they have no further reward,
  and even the memory of them is forgotten.

  My vision did not contradict this truth: those I saw knew absolutely nothing. Not where they were, who they were, what they were, what they were waiting for, what was going on there, what was going on here... nothing. I used the word "conscious" as directed by my Lord because to show exactly that: they were conscious of waiting for something but had no idea what that something was. They did not KNOW. I stated it as my Lord directed me. Let's look at the rest of the verse:

  6 Their love, their hate
  and their jealousy have long since vanished;
  never again will they have a part
  in anything that happens under the sun.

  There is a problem with this part, dear Stephen, as it is set out in the NIV. The confusion comes in with the phrase "in any[thing] that HAPPENS under the sun." The NIV use of the phrase "anything that HAPPENS" is an error. "Happens" is synonymous with "occurs." The correct transliteration, however, is "in anything that is DONE under the sun." And this is true. They will no longer have a part in anything that is DONE under the sun. BUT... they WILL have a part in one of the resurrections... if not the first, then the second, because the second is a resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous. That event HAPPENS... and they do have a part in it.

  Test Two

  My understanding is that you take issue with where the other spirits were. Your use of Luke 23:43 here is an error, however. Let's see why. You quote:

  43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

  Here's why the man could NOT have been with my Lord in paradise on THAT day: my Lord himself did not enter paradise... until several days later. First, he went to Hades for 3 days. Then, he appeared to his disciples for about 8 days. THEN... he ascended. Did the man go with him to Hades? No. Did he return from the grave to hang out with my Lord while he showed himself to his disciples? No. Did he later ascend with my Lord? Uh-uh. What you're suggesting, however, is that HE went BEFORE my Lord. If so, I must ask you: HOW DID HE GET IN... in light of what my Lord is recorded to have said TO HIS APOSTLES, whom he CHOSE:

  "I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." John 14:2, 3

  Now, I know that while you might not LIKE it, the accurate rendering IS "... I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." But those truths are not the only reason to know this phrasing is accurate. The FACT that the man COULDN'T have entered into paradise at that time is born out in the FACT that the resurrection has not yet occurred. Okay, moving on...

  It appears that you included 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 to say that when we're NOT in the body, we are with Christ and at home with him. Meaning, that as soon as we die, we are with him. Unfortunately, that's not accurate. I offer you Revelation 6:9, 10:

  "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."

  But since you referred to Paul, let's see what he had to say on the subject. I refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which states:

  "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

  So, according to Paul... whose words to "test" things out you follow... my Lord returns, at which time those who have died "in" him are resurrected AT THE SAME TIME as those who are "in" him but have NOT died (i.e., are still alive)... are caught up TOGETHER... to meet him in the air... and then be with him forever. Now, I say "at the same time," because the word in the Greek, "epieta," means "thereupon" as well as "afterwards." How do we know to choose "thereupon"? Well, why not look again to Paul, since he appears to be the "expert" here. He wrote, at 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52:

  "I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

  I am not sure (nor, apparently, is my Lord for he offers no guidance) as to why you included Philippians 1:20-22. So I will wait for your response.

  The man that Paul referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 is the Apostle John. Paul wrote that he didn't know whether the man went in body or in spirit. However, John was taken in SPIRIT, NOT in body, to the third heaven. And he was told later (41 years or so) to write what he was shown:

  "Write, therefore, what youhave seen, what is now and what will take place later." Revelation 1:19

  "At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it." Revelation 4:2

  I do not see any "place of protection" in the bible, unless you mean paradise or third heaven as Paul describes it?

  No, I meant the place "under the altar" as mentioned at Revelation 6:9 (as quoted above).

  Neither do I read of any hint of being "a bit more conscious". Clearly Paul was conscious when he was in heaven receiving revelations from Jesus.

  If Paul ever went (he may, although the Bible does not have a record), he went in spirit, not in body; however, we have no record (in the Bible) of him ever being in heaven OR receiving a revelation. We DO, however, have the revelation that was given to John... who shared it with Paul...whom he had met some years earlier (see Galatians 2:9). But how do we know it wasn't Paul who went to the third heave? Because Paul SAYS it wasn't him. He wrote:

  "I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows. And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses."

  So, while Paul certainly may have had a HOPE of going to receive visions and revelations, the Bible does not have a record of it. That doesn't mean he didn't, though... and such well could have been recorded somewhere else and left OUT of the Bible canon... as wat his FIRST letter to the Corinthian congregation. Again, though, the Bible does contain a record of John's revelation...

  Notice that James writes "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

  I absolutely agree: a body without the spirit is a dead soul. And a body WITH the spirit... is a LIVING soul.

  However, he does not write that "the spirit is dead without the body"! If not, how could Paul or the thief be "away from the body" yet "gain" in paradise?

  Dear Stephen, the spirit is NOT dead without the body, nor did I ever post such a thing. The body dies... but the SPIRIT... merely sleeps. Which is exactly what I posted. Spirits don't die; they can't die. They must be destroyed (Matthew 10:28). As for both Paul and the thief, neither entered into paradise, at least not when you assert: Paul, because you have him confused with John who DID enter, NOT in body but in SPIRIT (as he recorded at Revelation 4:2); the thief because you are misapplying the word "today," as I've had the privilege of explaining, above. Paul MAY have entered later, but if so it was ONLY in spirit... and the thief not at all, yet, because the resurrection has not yet occurred... which is the ONLY they CAN enter. Flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of hte heavens, dear one.

  Test Three

  Regarding Luke 16:13-19, you state "There is nothing in this passage to support your view that this occurred "BEFORE he passes over to the World of the Dead". On the contrary, verse 22 says both we already dead... and in their abodes, see also verses 30,31."

  Verse 22 says he died... and was buried. Meaning, his body was in the grave. The World of the Dead is beyond the grave, though (although, it is in the earth). It is where the SPIRIT goes (for those who don't go under the altar). The BODY... or FLESH... goes back to the dust. The BONES... however... don't.

  And the reason I saw bones... is because the spirit is IN the bones. LIFE... is in the BLOOD... and BLOOD... is manufactured in the BONES... in the marrow. That is why the Most Holy One of Israel blew into ADAM'S nostrils... Adam who was BONE (and flesh)... but not yet SKIN... and Adam came to be a LIVING soul. Eve came from one of Adam's BONES. It is why He blew spirit INTO the bones He showed Ezekiel... and they came to life... BEFORE they had sinews and skin. (Genesis 2:7, 21, 22; Leviticus 17:11; Ezekiel 37:1-14).

  What I saw were bones... with NO life in them: they could NOT stand up; they had NO thoughts; they remembered nothing. It was only when my Lord and I visited them that there was enough "life"... holy spirit... for them to even wake up in anticipation of something, and fall right back to sleep upon learning that that something hadn't occurred. All of which took less than 3 seconds. There was enough because my Lord was there. He IS the life, dear one!

  Your view that the torment is temporary directly contradicts the very words of Jesus Himself and the prophets.

  I have no view of torment, temporary or otherwise, for anyone other than the false prophet, the wild beast, and the Adversary. That was the message.

  Matthew 25:46 - 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

  See, here again is the problem with listening to men... and/or following their erroneous transliterations. The Greek word for "punishment" here is "kolases" and means "correction," "punishment," or "penalty." Which is correct? The word of my Lord is the "penalty" is correct. The verse should read:

  "These go away/depart into everlasting penalty."

  Which, according to Revelation 20:15 is true: they are cast INTO the Lake of Fire. But they're not tormented there. It's just that the penalty for their sins... is everlasting. They don't come back. They don't exist.

  Mark 9:47-48 - 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

  Okay, a couple things here: first, they are not thrown into hell. They are thrown into Gehinnom, or Gehenna. The Greek word for "hell" is "Hades" and that IS the World of the Dead. The word "hell" that the NIV shows here is "geenna"... which is the Lake of fire. And that fire is NOT quenched. It does not go out. It burns forever.

  As for the quote "where there worm does not die and the fire is not quenched," that is a reference from Isaiah 66:24, which is talking about the wild beast (whom I said WOULD be tormented forever and ever in the Lake of Fire) and those who worship it, the false prophet. The SMOKE from these being tossed INTO the Lake... will go on forever (Revelation 14:10, 11).

  Revelation 20:10 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  I take no exception here. I believe I posted this truth...

  Jude 1:7 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

  Here's one of those mistransliteration error things again. The word used here as "punishment" is "dike" in Greek and means the "execution of a sentence." I am to ask you, since Sodom and Gomorrah are the example: did those towns continue to burn? Are they burning yet? Or were they utterly destroyed... with NO trace of them left? What was the "example"? Were they tortured/tormented/or continually punished? Or were they simply wiped out?

  Also, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, hence David writes this

  Psalm 139:7-8 (English Standard Version)

  7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
  Or where shall I flee from your presence?
  8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
  If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

  You are misunderstanding. I absoutely agree that the Holy Spirit can go/be anywhere. I did not write that HE was not there. I wrote that God's holy spirit... His life force, blood, semen... was not there. The bones were DRY. NOT because the Holy Spirit wasn't there - indeed, he is the One who TOOK me there! Dry because there was no "WATER"... no LIVING WATER... God's holy spirit... which Christ pours out. There was none there, until he arrived with me in tow.

  I do not know your history of faith, I assume you are a former JW?

  It's been some years, but, yeah...

  If so, it seems clear that false JW doctrines are still lingering IMHO.

  You are entitled to your opinion... but truly, I did not get one bit of this from them. In fact, THEY would denounce me for such a vision. They would accuse me of consorting with demons.

  Anyhow, I would be interested to hear you thoughts, especially supported with scripture!

  Well, then, there you have it. Just as my Lord, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... guided me.

  Blessings,

  May JAH bless you, as well, and again, I bid you peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  lumper

  I have been quite busy but had to reply to this post. Chalam/Steven you did a great job of revealing Bilbical truth in your post. AGuest/SA it is unfortunate in the light of plain truth that you still are stuck in the Jw/Adventist view of death known as "Soul sleep." I wish for you nothing but the blessing of the saving grace of Jesus Christ but I must take issue with the tone of your writings. Your authoritarian, condescending, "I have the wisdom and the visions and you don't" attitude is exactly what most of us experienced for years within the WTBTS. That attitude ruined and continues to ruin many lives. Scripture says, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." (2 Peter 5:5) In heaven there will be no one who is unlike the Lord Jesus Christ, He is the personification of humilty, (Philippians 2) so it is always wise to lean upon the Lord to keep our ego in check. I have a former friend who began to go to church and became obsessed with gaining knowlege of scripture without allowing it to change him. He ended up disagreeing with the teachings of that church and then sought to be a man of biblical knowledge and wisdom. He loved to show everyone that he could call Jesus by his Hebrew name, Yeshua. At the moment because he feels so superior to any Christian roundabout he doesn't go to church just sits home and feels good about himself. It is a shame when that which began fresh and anew falls back into the same old ways. There are many things we will get the final answer for when we get to heaven. WE/I sure don't know all the ideep things of God, but a "broken/humble and contrite heart God will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
• 

  AGuest

  AGuest/SA it is unfortunate in the light of plain truth that you still are stuck in the Jw/Adventist view of death known as "Soul sleep."

  Since we're dealing with the "plain truth" here, dear Lumper (and peace to you!), the TRUTH is that JWs don't believe the soul sleeps. They believe... and teach that when one dies... the spirit (soul) dies. They even quote the verse over and over:

  "The soul that is sinning, it itself will die."

  It is one of their cornerstone teachings, albeit they absolutely misuse it. I have no idea what Adventists believe/teach on the subject, though.

  I wish for you nothing but the blessing of the saving grace of Jesus Christ

  Again, let's stick to the plain truth... and this is a lie. One you're telling yourself... and wish me and others here to believe.

  but I must take issue with the tone of your writings.

  The "tone"? It is writing. How is it that you know my "tone"?

  Your authoritarian, condescending, "I have the wisdom and the visions and you don't" attitude is exactly what most of us experienced for years within the WTBTS.

  You may have experienced that in the WTBTS... but your certainly aren't getting that from me. Do I receive visions? Yes, I do. Should I lie about/hide that? That would depend on who it is I obey, wouldn't it? Since I obey God, through Christ, the answer would, understandably be no, I should not.

  Do I have wisdom? I do not. I have never professed to have wisdom. To the contrary, I have openly, honestly, and truthfully confessed here... MANY times... that I am NOT wise, that I don't know these things, that they are GIVEN to me... me, a good-for-nothing-servant. Although "discerning (i.e., hearing/seeing) spirits IS one of my gifts [of the spirit]... wisdom is not. NO ONE knows that, dear Lumper, more than I do.

  That attitude ruined and continues to ruin many lives. Scripture says, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." (2 Peter 5:5)

  So, because I shared the TRUTH... did not water it down... did not change to suit others or prevent responses such are yours... I am "proud?" Truly? I think you have it backward, dear one: a proud person wouldn't have put themselves out there. in such a manner or with such a vision. They wouldn't have posted what I did in any form. Why? Because their PRIDE... wouldn't have LET them subject themselves to the ridicule that results.

  Proud people don't post the kinds of things I do, dear Lumper. Truly, it only someone foolish ... and I AM a "foolish" thing, as my posts repeatedly show... who would do so. Someone who esteems the reproach of the Christ as far more than the riches of Egypt.

  You think you are reproaching me, dear one... because of what I shared with YOU. But my Lord GAVE such to me TO share. That you can't RECEIVE it... doesn't make ME proud. It makes YOU so.

  In heaven there will be no one who is unlike the Lord Jesus Christ, He is the personification of humility, (Philippians 2)

  I don't disagree...

  So it is always wise to lean upon the Lord to keep our ego in check.

  Please forgive me for laughing but, again, you have it backward. My Lord gave me a vision and told me to share it. I did. Just as I received it. I even said HOW I got and from WHOM. I leaned COMPLETELY upon him. Indeed, I had to. Because I know that there are those like you... who place THEIR own egos... over the leadings of Christ, the Holy Spirit. But I followed him... did "just so" as he directed me. And now YOU believe YOU know more than him... and that I should follow and listen to YOU. Seriously?

  I have a former friend who began to go to church and became obsessed with gaining knowledge of scripture without allowing it to change him. He ended up disagreeing with the teachings of that church and then sought to be a man of biblical knowledge and wisdom.

  Well, if he had spoken with me... or read anything I've posted... he would have known that he shouldn't have done ANY of that. He would have KNOWN:

  1. He SHOULDN'T have gone to a church - he should have gone to Christ... who would have made him a "living stone" in the "temple" of God... which IS the church.

  2. He SHOULDN'T have become obsessed with knowledge... of scripture or anything else... because the TRUTH is not contained in the scriptures... or in the Bible. He would have known that he could read the Bible from front to back... every day of his life... and STILL he wouldn't understand what it's speaking about. Because it is CHRIST who opens up the scriptures to us... and not we ourselves.

  3. That disagreeing with that church was inevitable... IF he was truly seeking knowledge; and

  4. Being a "man" of ANY kind of knowledge and wisdom that does not originate with Christ... is vanity.

  YOU would know that, too, had YOU condescended to read ANY of what I've posted over the past many years. But you didn't. Rather, you read one (maybe two) posts... and think you "know" me. You do not. Not at all.

  He loved to show everyone that he could call Jesus by his Hebrew name, Yeshua.

  I'm sorry, he "loved to show everyone?" What, may I ask, is the crime there? What was his sin? Dear one, Christ's name IS JahEshua (your friend's version uses the wrong starting letter - it's a pure consonant, not a consonant/vowel - and is missing a syllable). How is using someone's RIGHT name a wrong thing? On the other hand, using the WRONG name for someone is... well, kind of disrespectful, wouldn't you say?

  The Son of God's name is not "Jesus", dear Lumper. "Jesus" is the English translation of the Greek name, "Ieosus," which name means "Jah is Zeus." But the Most Holy One of Israel ISN'T Zeus. He is "JaHVeH"... which name means "JAH... who breathes into existence armies (of angels)" or ... "... who causes armies (of angels) to come into existence. And Christ's name, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... is taken FROM that name and means "JAH saves/Salvation of JAH"... "the chosen/anointed of JAH."

  I mean, would YOU like it if I addressed you as "Lumpy"... when you've clearly shown your name to be "Lumper?" You would not. I am directed to tell you that if you wish to know the TRUE name of the Most High God... you can see Psalm 68:4... or you can do what I did: go to the Son and let HIM tell you. I am also to tell you to think about the word, "Hallelujah." It means "Praise you, JAH." But, then, you knew that, didn't you?

  At the moment because he feels so superior to any Christian roundabout he doesn't go to church just sits home and feels good about himself.

  Now how do YOU know why he doesn't go to [a] church? Do YOU know his heart?

  It is a shame when that which began fresh and anew falls back into the same old ways. There are many things we will get the final answer for when we get to heaven.

  It is a shame.... and so you might want to look at those three fingers pointing back at you as to the first part of this statement. Second, there are many things that we CAN get answers for now, too... by means of the Holy Spirit... which my Lord said would lead us into ALL truth... through the anointing that is IN us. Third, yes, there are many more thing we will get answers on... assuming, that is... "we" get to heaven.

  WE/I sure don't know all the deep things of God

  Neither do I. But this wasn't about the deep things of God - it was about something I received from Christ. And for those of us who are joined to Christ, who are IN UNION with HIM... we certainly can have HIS [Christ's] mind... and thus know what HE knows... can we not? We can. (1 Corinthians 2:16) And it was that mind that shared with me. And I praise JAH that he saw fit to do so!

  but a "broken/humble and contrite heart God will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)

  No, indeed. Rather, He may REWARD it... perhaps even by allowing such a one to "carry" His "utensils." And so I will NOT hide it... or be ashamed of it. Because I am of the Body that, by means of a NEW covenant... ratified with the blood of Christ... must obey GOD as their ruler, rather than [men]. So, I heard and I saw. And I was told to share what I heard and what I saw. And I did just so. Without changing a single part.

  And I did so without ANY regard as to whether folks like you would humble themselves so as to HEAR... or whether they would refrain. Because that is between you and God's Word, Christ... and not you and me.

  Again, I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA