I don't mind dying, just don't drivel me to death!
Aguest seems to have this stuff wound up on a big spool and unwinds 50 feet or so at a time.
What happens when you die?
by AGuest 97 Replies latest jw friends
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Yizuman
The only question I have is what make you think that Jesus preached to the spirit in prison at the time He was dead or is that just an assumption?
Because of what Jesus said in Revelations 1:8, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
Jesus defeated death by his resurrection. Through his death and resurrection, we have His victory in Him.
I don't trust in man to understand God's word. When I read the bible, I follow three rules...
John 14:26, "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
The Holy Spirit is my Teacher, whenever I have a problem, it is He that will bring me into understanding.
Acts 17:11, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
When I go to church, I don't take everything from a Preacher at face value, I check them out to make sure it lines with scripture. Always compare scripture with scripture.
Finally, this rule I always take heed to:
Jeremiah 17:5 "This is what the LORD says:
"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the LORD."Trusting in man and especially in man made religion, like the WTS can bring trouble and heartache for not only him/herself, but to his/her family as well.
Yiz
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myelaine
dear Shelby...
you said: "because you're asking me whether the Holy Spirit that speaks to me might in fact be Satan... and that is blasphemy"
that is not what I asked...I asked if you have tested the spirit that speaks to you and how. There is really no need to get defensive and start judging what my intentions are in asking these questions.
love michelle
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flipper
AGUEST- I don't know. I don't think anybody does. Unless they experience it. I'll tell you when I get dead , when I die. Hopefully at age 100 or more. If I'm floating around somewhere- I'll call you
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AK - Jeff
What an extremely large pile of hooey!
Do you people think that volume of words insists correct your assumptions? Your exegesis of a book filled with illogical holes is amazing - an amazing waste of energy. Why not spend it in some serious contemplation of reality? Just a thought. [May the holy ones of the Flying Spaghetti Monster be blessed.]
Jeff
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Yizuman
What an extremely large pile of hooey!
1 Cor 2: 13-14 "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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Chalam
Hello Yiz,
The only question I have is what make you think that Jesus preached to the spirit in prison at the time He was dead or is that just an assumption?
Please note, the issue here is that Shelby is claiming that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison 1 Peter 3:19 during the time that His body was dead in the tomb, not some other time.
Personally it is not a great issue to me but it does seem that those who teach it are using the preceding verse as if it happened at the same time rather than, by the Holy Spirit both events occurred.
1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom [ a ] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
I don't trust in man to understand God's word. When I read the bible, I follow three rules...
Agreed about your three rules for testing biblical teaching :)
Blessings,
Stephen
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Chalam
Hello Shelby,
Thanks for your replies.
I have read them thoroughly but forgive me if I do not respond in depth as I did before, which I think is largely unprofitable at this stage
1 Timothy 6:3-5 2 Timothy 2:14-26 Titus 3:9-11
To be honest, I feel as if I discussing these doctrinal issues with a JW circular of debate, returning ultimately to where we started :(
Of course, I agree with some of the points you have made. However, I am concerned that you hold some views that are clearly WT teachings. They are liars and speak their native language John 8:44 and they distort the bible to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16
Forgive me if any of my comments have been delivered without love. However, please note also God hates what is false Proverbs 13:5 and this is made clear through the words of Paul, Peter and even Jesus regarding false teachers and heretics.
I think it best if I just recap what I see and others who have responded in this thread.
- You believe in Annihilationism, just as the WT teach.
- You believe in Soul sleep, just as the WT teach.
- You do not believe in the Trinity, which the WT also vehemently appose.
I still find that the revelations Paul writes about are his own and he was caught up into Third Heaven. The additional evidence for this is thus:-
1. The "thorn in the flesh" was Paul's not John's. Surely, if Paul is talking of John's revelations then surely John would have the thorn, not Paul?
2. Some revelations of Paul are not found in John's revelation. Paul explains several "mysteries" hidden in ages past but now revealed to him.
3. Paul does not credit any third party. This would seem strange as he is clearly seeking to be humble about these revelations and could easily have named John if that were true rather than "I know a man". As it is, I still agree with the biblical scolars who find 2 Corinthians 12:7 makes it clear Paul had his own revelations, first hand.
4. Paul already had his own first hand revelation from the Lord Acts 22:6 and I see no reason why he couldn't have had another such as the Third Heaven experience 2 Corinthians 12 , especially considering the uniqueness of his calling and ministry Galatians 2:9 Romans 15:15-17
5. The very nature of Paul's revelations are different to John's. Most believe John was in the body, seeing in the Spirit Revelation 1:10 Revelation 4:2 Revelation 21:10 and Paul was likely out of the body 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:22-24 2 Corinthians 12:2 , possibly because he was physically dead after being beaten by rods and stoned Acts 14:19 2 Corinthians 11:25 James 2:26
Anyhow, I am not particularly concerned with the issue. I do find it more concerning that you say this revelation is to you (only) and I have never read or heard of your theory, on the contrary, those that hold the view that Paul is writing of his own Third Heaven experience, not any one else's
... and what is the third heaven Paul ...
The 2nd and 3rd HEAVEN and lower and upper PARADISE
My concern it there is a history of people who claim to have sole divine revelation but turn out to be heretics, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith etc. Anyhow, maybe I am missing something here and there are others who share your view?
I have no problem with you having prophetic visions, my wife has them all the time. However, they need to be tested, especially the interpretation (as apposed to the revelation) by "two or three witnesses".
Paul said he was to minister to the Gentiles and this was supported by Peter's vision for example Acts 10. Also supported by huge amounts of scripture Isaiah 65:1 Isaiah 2 Micah 4 Joel 2 Plenty of "witnesses" all round.
Blessings,
Stephen
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THE GLADIATOR
chalam: My concern it there is a history of people who claim to have sole divine revelation but turn out to be heretics, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith etc. Anyhow, maybe I am missing something here and there are others who share your view?
Yes you are missing something. ALL people who claim to have sole divine revelation turn out to be heretics or nutters.
And get your wife to a doctor!
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AGuest
dear Shelby...
Michelle...
you said: "because you're asking me whether the Holy Spirit that speaks to me might in fact be Satan... and that is blasphemy"
I did.
that is not what I asked...I asked if you have tested the spirit that speaks to you and how.
Not what you asked, true, but absolutley what you insinuated. I quote:
As you know satan is active and able to mislead many people often because we trust that which "resonates" with our "spirit".
"See"? Or perhaps not...
There is really no need to get defensive and start judging what my intentions are in asking these questions.
Okay, wait - I judged YOUR intentions??!!!! You have all but said that the Spirit that speaks and guides me MIGHT be Satan... and that I MIGHT not know the difference. As if I would even have a sharing with that one. You do this because your FEAR of him leads to you dance on the border of blasphemy ("Is it POSSIBLE, Shelby, that the one speaking to is Satan"?) It is NOT possible... not by any stretch. And for you to even insinuate otherwise does offend me. If I wasn't SURE... I wouldn't have SAID.
Yet, if I listened to people like you... people who come to me under the PRETENSE of "love"... then I most probably WOULD give in and do the Adversary's will... which is to NOT share these things ("Oh, shoot, MICHELLE thinks it MIGHT be Satan. Can't share THAT, then!). IF you truly loved ME, however... indeed IF you truly loved the Christ/Holy Spirit... you would have asked HIM... and HE would have told YOU... that what I speak IS from him. WHY you would have done so? Because love... BELIEVES ALL THINGS... at least as far as those who say they love one another. Because one who truly LOVES... has NO reason to LIE to another... or believe that one who claims to love THEM is lying TO them!
But, no, rather than do that... which WOULD have been an expression of love you claim ("Okay, Shelby, out of that "love" I'm always professing to you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt"...) you now insinuate that I should doubt! WHY? Because YOU doubt! YOU lack faith... and as always... want me to put MINE to the test. But I won't. WHY? Because I don't have the FEAR that you do, Michelle. And I don't have such fear because MY love... has been perfected. And PERFECT love casts ALL fear... outside.
So, now, I have grown "tired" of your kind of "love," and that is what you are hearing from me here. Because your love does NOT originate with God... but with the Adversary. Your comment served to HIS glory, and not God's. Are your feelings now hurt? They should be: I told you that I would NOT hold back from rebuking you... if you pressed me. You have tried to insinuate that something that originated with God, through His Holy Spirit, MAY have actually come from Satan. And I'm supposed to just go, "Oh, no, dear Michelle, of course, not. Indeed, I 'tested' the vision and no, it was not Satan attempting to mislead me... and thank you for asking because I really don't have enough spiritual "sense" to know any better. That the Spirit who guided me and showed me these things WAS in fact the Holy One of Israel is irrelevant... I need to "test" him." Right. YOU are the one is to "test"... the expression I shared. Not ONE of those who were given a vision, however, TESTED that vision. They say what they saw... and openly confessed what they say... and who it was that gave them the vision. I have done absolutely the same thing.
And the vision DID come from my Lord and if you don't have enough faith to ASK him to verify that for YOU.... then at LEAST consider the LOVE that was borne out by it: so many live in FEAR... and GRIEF... over what happens after one dies. Is my loved one burning for eternity somewhere? Are they suffering? Are they being tormented? Will I be? By a God who claims to be "love"? And the answer is they are NOT... and won't be. They are not toiling. They are not burning. They are not suffering. They are not mourning. They are not being tormented. God IS love... and it would never come up into His mind or heart to perpetually torture HUMANS... for "sin" that started with Adam! To say that He IS or WOULD... is to say that He is NOT love... but is unrighteous. YOU, though... because you claim to "know"... should know BETTER.
So, yes... I am a bit indignant. If you had said such things without trying to "cover" it under the guise of love... I would have responded differently. But because you think that using hearts and terms of endearment... and the PRETENSE of love... will cause me to maybe leave OFF my profession of what I saw and HOW I saw it... insults me. Burns me up, in fact. And I did not hurry myself to be offended - I have been patient with you for some years now. I've always known where it was going... but I took it in stride. No more. As my Lord said, "He that is not against you is for you." You have only pretended to be "for" me... because you use little hearts to indicate your "love." Your love, however, is false. It is like the WT's "bortherly love." It is merely another way for Satan to "mislead, if possible, EVEN the chosen ones."
Well, I don't want any further part of such falsehood. Because it is a LIE... and belongs to the darkness. Keep it to yourself.
A slave of Christ,
SA, who, yeah, gets a little indignant when someone insinuates I'm actually listening to Satan when I've TOLD them who it is that speaks to me...