by daniel-p 35 Replies latest jw friends
Conscious matter to her, means it's wrong. They are just implemented for the spiritually weak. Drives me crazy!!
Show her what the Bible actually says: Titus 1:15 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
I still think you guys are deluding yourselves. This thread is pure fantasy. Calling it Hypothetical is just adding vanilla icing to what is really brussel sprouts. Reality check folks, ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!! I'm not trying to hijack this thread, and if it comes off that way, I apologize. I hate troll activity. However, this thread is doing nothing but getting your hopes up, and getting lurkers hopes up too. This isnt Dungeons & Dragons. Stop fantasizing.
A month ago, we had a part on updated DPA's. Field Service Group Overseers passed out the new forms to those in their groups. This didnt happen in every state, only about a dozen or so states with specific laws. I'm not 100$ sure what the legality in regards to the specific states this happened in. Fast forward, to last week at the Service Meeting, for the local needs part, they reminded those that hadn't filled out the DPA and presented a copy to the Secretary yet, to do so. They emphasized not to delay. I can't see the reasoning behind emphasizing this, only to rescind the policy several months later. Chalk this up with lowered Pioneer hours, Circuit Overseer elimination, Elder's School, etc..
miseryloveselders: I'm not fantasizing, but hypothesizing a "what if" scenario. There's no need for you to be so opposed to the very idea, especially since all indication is there will eventually be a dropping of this doctrine. And this thread is not about IF it will happen, but in the case it does happen, how would you spin it? So you need to go back to the other thread.
metatron: Can I be frank with you? Calm the fuck down and listen for a second at what I'm saying! I'm not talking about some kind of "mass exodus" of average JWs. As far as the average JW is concerned, I agree whole-heartedly with what you're saying. Perhaps a better title to this thread would be "A Hypothetical Conversation with JWs On the Edge". But the fact that this may not cause the average JW to leave is irrelevant. This religion inherently carries with it a significant contingency of disgruntled, fringe, semi-apostate people with a stack of doubts and issues they've been trying to grapple with, and this will give them one more huge issue that might tip the scales. How the hell did we ourselves get here? So why wouldn't we try to exploit that?
Your stance seems to be one where we throw our hands up in the air and guffaw at the stubbornness of believers and just say "to hell with it." Well, I choose to give some people the benefit of the doubt. Even if they don't outwardly indicate agreement with any "apostate" idea, they sure as hell will remember it, and when they're ready, it will come up out of the cob-webbed corners of their mind and they'll have to confront it. So, I think you're jaded. And that's fine, but there's no reason to run around and "yell" at anyone who wants to try to help others.
I guess the closest comparison would be the allowance of fractions now vs the previous complete ban.
---Complete ban = prior to 1958
They've got nothing to worry about.
OK, Daniel - let's look at your 'other than average Witness' idea. What you're suggesting is actually a point worth discussing and debating. Does a spectrum or graduated series of Witnesses exist? Or put somewhat humorously:
1) Totally loyal punked/deluded/suckered dolts
2) Mostly loyal punked/deluded/suckered dolts
3)Often loyal dolts
and so on, down the line.
It's difficult to distinguish between actual belief and quiet compliance in WatchtowerLand. Frankly, I doubt most Witlesses have that figured out in their personal lives either!
Anybody! Feel free to jump in here! Does an actual spectrum of Witnesses exist? I don't see how exactly.............
I can be a Republican and still think national healthcare is a good idea. I can be a Libertarian and still think corporations have too much power. I can be Catholic and doubt transubstantiation and celibacy. I can generally support an organization but still take exception to some of its ideas.
Can I do anything like the above "in the truth"? It tends strongly towards an all or nothing system in which even the most absurd beliefs have to be absolutely defended. Yes, I have known a very few who had different ideas but they were very guarded about it and utterly loyal otherwise.
Another reason to doubt that 'semi-loyal' Witnesses exist? The evident progress of this and other internet sites! I've been observing a profound change about sites critical of the organization - we used to have long, torturous diiscussions about every aspect of Watchtower doctrine and all that's nearly gone. I think we have cleaned the organization out of people who cared about a consistent, rational system of belief - and if so, what's left?
Exception: I do think there are a number of Witnesses who continue to be attached because of family or social obligations. This is probably why there are so many ex-elders still hanging around in the organization. Their belief may actually be compromised. However, since the above is the reason for their facade of faithfulness, a change on blood may not mean anything to them - other than one less worry about what to do if they need blood and don't really believe.
Finally, I would point out an anecdote from Barb Anderson herself. She was told by a retired surgeon that nearly all Witnesses would accept blood if it was needed to save them but didn't want anyone to know. This is the Watchtower power of peer pressure.
Daniel, if you still have relatives or friends in the 'truth', I wish you well in trying to open their minds and hearts about it. However, I remain convinced that the Society has little to worry about. They have done an outstanding job of building this cult.
metatron
