CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry 159 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  notverylikely

  Now, are either or both of these men (who individually believe in their own mind they are free to come and go at will) actually in possession of FREE WILL?

  Ah, the old "gotcha!" example, where you reveal the vital clue at the end and try to trick me into saying something that proves your point that free will is all in the mind, when, in reality, you are asking the wrong question.

  The doctor certainly does, unless he is somehow impeded in some way that you are not mentioning. The patient...I don't enough detail. Why is he incarcerated? Why is there a guntower for a mental patient and barb wire? That sounds like a prison to me, not a mental facility. If I presume that we are just talking about a regular mental facility, then I am not in any way arguing that free will for a specific individual (or large group, see China as an example) can't be restricted or suspended, but, for the general population at large, free will exists.
• 

  Terry

  However, your example is a false premise because exercising free will does not infer ability to act on that will or accomplish it.

  A WILL or determination or goal held in the mind is not actually anything at all but a mental construct in the exact same way that a dream, hallucination or false premise is held in the mind.

  A FREE WILL which cannot go beyond the mind's construction is as illusory in form and substance as Bigfoot, UFO kidnappings, Loch Ness Monsters or any other freakish mental confusion between reality and fantasy.

  You don't seem to want to escape Plato and enter the camp of Aristotle.

  There is only one world and it is the real one.

  What you HOLD IN YOUR MIND is of no consequence to anybody but yourself UNLESS and UNTILL it actually impinges upon reality (THIS WORLD) in the form of an action.

  You are arguing that the FREEDOM of the mind to HALLUCINATE is an actual freedom rather than the horror of dysfunction it actually is.

  Surely, you see how fruitless a position that is and how little merit it holds in our discussion?
• 

  Terry

  A citizen, in order to possess the right of Free Speech only has to exercise the mental activity of THINKING about the speech RATHER THAN ACTUALLY ENGAGING in the speech itself.......is that your opinion of what Free Speech is?

  That is not at all what I said. I said that merely speaking (or writing) one's opinion accomplishes free speech. I also said that was not dependant on anyone else listening or caring.

  Now you've backtracked! SPEAKING and WRITING is ACCOMPLISHING something, which you previously declared out of bounds in your definition.

  Why are you floundering?

  You should take note that none of those in any way made reference to accomplishing your choice. I think where you miss the target is that the very action of making the choice exercises your free will, not accomplishing it,
• 

  Terry

  If that is your opinion, then, I can certainly see why you think FREE WILL consists of only THINKING YOU HAVE IT rather than engaging in an actual choice.

  That's not at all what I wrote. And I never said that free will only consisted of thinking that you have it. I said it does not imply accomplishing the choice of the will.

  Of what possible utility is a FREE anything which does not imply the exercising of the Freedom?? Or, a choice which does not imply choosing?
• 

  Terry

  Ah, the old "gotcha!" example, where you reveal the vital clue at the end and try to trick me into saying something that proves your point that free will is all in the mind, when, in reality, you are asking the wrong question.

  I suppose telling me I've asked the wrong question is one way of avoiding answering the question I've asked!
• 

  Terry

  If I presume that we are just talking about a regular mental facility, then I am not in any way arguing that free will for a specific individual (or large group, see China as an example) can't be restricted or suspended, but, for the general population at large, free will exists.

  Have you seen SHUTTER ISLAND? The criminally insane think all sorts of things inside their head which they aren't allowed to freely express where they will do harm (i.e. the real world.)

  WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between a thought which is inside the head and imagined and a thought which is "REAL?" I'd very much like to know your specific disambiguation on that.
• 

  notverylikely

  A FREE WILL which cannot go beyond the mind's construction is as illusory in form and substance as Bigfoot, UFO kidnappings, Loch Ness Monsters or any other freakish mental confusion between reality and fantasy.

  Let's stick with the marathon example. My boss and I can both decide to run a marathon tomorrow. We both go to the starting line and both start running. I can tell you right now, he will finish, I will not. I usually run 3 - 4 miles 3x times a week. He runs 7 or 8 marathons a year. His WARM UP is 10 miles. However, I still have the free will to try to run a marathon. Finishing (accomplishing) the marathon has zero to do with the free will to decide to try in this case. I could decide (use free will) to train for a marathon. Crazy, I know...

  What you HOLD IN YOUR MIND is of no consequence to anybody but yourself UNLESS and UNTILL it actually impinges upon reality (THIS WORLD) in the form of an action.

  So? Who says that free will has to effect anyone but the person making the choice?

  Now you've backtracked! SPEAKING and WRITING is ACCOMPLISHING something, which you previously declared out of bounds in your definition.

  I never said accomplishing something was out of bounds. In any event, saying you accomplished free speed and free will are two different things, much like saying i made toast or rolled a rock up a hill. the critera for accomplishment are different.
• 

  notverylikely

  Surely, you see how fruitless a position that is and how little merit it holds in our discussion?

  Surely no more pointless that you arguing free will doesn't exist when you didn't even know the definition.

  WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between a thought which is inside the head and imagined and a thought which is "REAL?" I'd very much like to know your specific disambiguation on that.

  Argument of misdirection. I said that free will is the freedom to choose and try. With the marathon example, i could decide to train for that marathon, no one is stopping me, i might even tell my friends about it (free speech, baby!), but i might not every start because i am lazy. Free will has been exercised, marathon training, not so much.
• 

  notverylikely

  I suppose telling me I've asked the wrong question is one way of avoiding answering the question I've asked!

  I haven't ignored any of them. My telling you that is a way of trying to help you understand logic and debate and how to draw conclusions from a given set of data. Should you choose to learn or not is up to you (free will in motion).
• 

  jaguarbass

  Terry, according to your initial post I agree with your assessment of free will and

  choice.

  When I left the tower in 83, I read the bible cover to cover 5 times and basically

  What I got out of reading the bible could be sumed up in your initial post.

  God made some to be good and some to be bad, some for honor some for dishonor.

  Everything is for his pleasure and ammusement.

  Pharoh had no choice and neither did Judas. God was yanking their chains.

  If you want to go beyond the bible, things about quantum physics I have read would

  also agree with your position on free will.