CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry 159 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry

    What you HOLD IN YOUR MIND is of no consequence to anybody but yourself UNLESS and UNTIL it actually impinges upon reality (THIS WORLD) in the form of an action.

    So? Who says that free will has to effect anyone but the person making the choice?

    ___________________________________________________________-

    It really isn't a question of "Who says.."

    We seem to be engaged in a conversation in which you are stuck in the SUBJECTIVE WORLD which is in no way different from the IMAGINARY.

    I'm arguing from OBJECTIVE commonality which is to say MUST HAVE PRACTICAL APPLICATION in the same world we all share.

    A FREE WILL which cannot go beyond the mind's construction is as illusory in form and substance as Bigfoot, UFO kidnappings, Loch Ness Monsters or any other freakish mental confusion between reality and fantasy.

    Let's stick with the marathon example.

    ____________________________________

    No, let's get you to acknowledge that anything you think you think is neither FREE nor WILL until it meets the test of objectivity outside your mind in behavior which demonstrates its existence.

    Otherwise, a man who thinks he is Napoleon is as valid to you as the actual Napoleon thinking about his own identity.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    "It really isn't a question of "Who says..""

    You said it, in fact.

    We seem to be engaged in a conversation in which you are stuck in the SUBJECTIVE WORLD which is in no way different from the IMAGINARY.

    That's certainly an interesting viewpoint, but subjective opinions often interject into reality. That's why we have different flavors of ice cream. I subjectively prefer vanilla bean, but my friend subjectively prefers chocolate. Two subjective opinions that have a very real effect (manufacturers making different flavors).

    I'm arguing from OBJECTIVE commonality which is to say MUST HAVE PRACTICAL APPLICATION in the same world we all share.

    That's not what objective means.

    "No, let's get you to acknowledge that anything you think you think is neither FREE nor WILL until it meets the test of objectivity outside your mind in behavior which demonstrates its existence."

    Why would I agree to acknowledge that? It doesn't meet the definition of free will and layers on criteria of free will that you made, i.e., test of objectivity. The marathon example perfectly illustrates how free will can be used and never accomplish the goal the free will decided up, which is to say that exercising and using free will does not imply achievement of the end result.

    Otherwise, a man who thinks he is Napoleon is as valid to you as the actual Napoleon thinking about his own identity.

    Her certainly is free to think it. I am under no obligation to agree with him. Why would you suggest that? Let's go back to the marathon example. I might think i can run a marathon. You disagree. We have both exercised free will.

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Benjamin Lebit wrote a paper a number of years ago dealing with this business of "Free Will". The upshot of the paper was that we have a measure of "Free WONT".

    "Libet's experiments suggest that unconscious processes in the brain are the true initiator of volitional acts, and free will therefore plays no part in their initiation. If the brain has already taken steps to initiate an action before we are aware of any desire to perform it, the causal role of consciousness in volition is all but eliminated.

    Libet finds that conscious volition is exercised in the form of 'the power of veto' (sometimes called free won't); conscious acquiescence is required to allow the unconscious buildup of the readiness potential to be actualized as a movement. While consciousness plays no part in the instigation of volitional acts, it retains a part to play in the form of suppressing or withholding from certain acts instigated by the unconscious. Libet noted that everyone has experienced the withholding from performing an unconscious urge. Since the subjective experience of the conscious will to act preceded the action by only 200 milliseconds, this leaves consciousness only 100-150 milliseconds to veto an action (this is because the final 50 milliseconds prior to an act are occupied by the activation of the spinalmotor neurones by the primary motor cortex, and the margin of error indicated by tests utilizing the oscillator must also be considered).

    Susan Blackmore's common sense interpretation is "that conscious experience takes some time to build up and is much too slow to be responsible for making things happen."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

    Now what I remember asking a number at the hall was:

    Me - "Is it possible that Jehovah could have created a different world?"

    Them - "Yes."

    Me - "Could he have created a world wherein humans had pseudo-free-will?"

    Them - "What do you mean?"

    Me - "By 'pseudo-free-will', I mean the kind of 'free-will' where we imagine that we have free will, but we don't. Could he have done that? Could Jehovah have created a world where we had psuedo-free-will?"

    Them - "I suppose so."

    Me - "If he could have, and we wouldn't have been aware of it. Why didn't he create a world where Adam and Eve were given the same provisions for life and death as before, only that these didn't ACTUALLY have the ability to disobey, but instead imagined that they did?"

    Them - "The angels would have known."

    Me - "Could he not have done the same likewise with them?"

    Them - "Well, yes. Where are you going with this?"

    Me - "Where I'm 'going' with this, is that I'm wondering if this was possible, why it is it wasn't done the way I suggested. Namely, that Adam and Even and the angels and all 'intelligent' creation were created without free will, but instead pseudo-free-will and that these could imagine instead that they acted with restraint, instead of prohibition. If it was in fact possible that Jehovah could have created Adam and Even in this manner, so that when they heard the command about the eating of fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, that they considered it, and instead of eating from it, didn't, then why didn't Jehovah do that instead? Adam and Eve could have simply imagined that they had the volition to disobey, but lacking the ability, no crime would have ocurred, and the world today would have been perfect?"

    Them - "Well, Jehovah would have known they didn't have free will."

    Me - "So it's all about him, huh?"

    Them - ????!!!

  • JWoods
    JWoods
    Do you think about what you are posting before you press "submit"?

    What would be the point? Isn't everything we post already predestined?

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    What would be the point? Isn't everything we post already predestined?

    You could choose the pre-destiny in front of you, but only a great fool would reach for what he is given and you are not a great fool, so you must choose the free-will in front of me. However, in being a criminal, you must have learned not to trust others, so you clearly cannot choose the free will in front of me. However, you are an educated man and in learning you must have discovered the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, so you clearly cannot choose the pre-destiny in front of you. However, you must also have learned that man is mortal and cannot choose the time of his death, so you clearly cannot choose the free-will in front of me.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    I have thought about this quite a bit.... I think the universe is a deterministic machine and that free will is an illusion. It's only the perception of free will that matters, so this conclusion doesn't "bother" me.

    Think about it this way... if we had the ability to save the entire "state" of the universe and restore it to an earlier point in time, everything would play out exactly as it did before...the same choices would be made, the same seemingly random things would happen exactly as before: weather patterns, radioactive decay, activity at the quantum level etc.

    Of course until someone creates a device that can save/restore the state of the universe, we wouldn't be able to test my little hypothesis. And even if we had such a machine, we'd have to be outside the universe so that our own observing mind is not restored with the rest of the universe.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Think about it this way... if we had the ability to save the entire "state" of the universe and restore it to an earlier point in time, everything would play out exactly as it did before...the same choices would be made, the same seemingly random things would happen exactly as before: weather patterns, radioactive decay, etc.

    Why do you think that? Observations made actually don't bear this out. For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    I have read with interest the ongoing debate as I have many others on this very subject.

    notverylikely I am wondering how much free will or control you have over the words you type? Behind all the words is a need to engage in this debate; the need is an emotional one. By the way I chose to be a gladiator because Napoleon was french and I prefer Italy.

    gubberningbody The information you have provided shows that very little of what we do or refrain from doing is controlled by our conscious mind. Unconscious forces compel us to act as we do. Our conscious level of resistance is often mistaken for free will. Increasing our level of awareness can give us a better understanding of what motivates our decisions and perhaps increases our resistance but ultimately we will be ourselves. Who else could we possibly be?

    Self observation is of great help. As I type I am aware of the remarks I have just made and ask what has motivated me. Why did I decide to add my two pennyworth to this debate? What need or emotion drives me. Am I trying to be friendly, controversial, clever or aggressive; perhaps I am just bored? The words are written to satisfy a need that goes much deeper than content of the subject.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    Why do you think that? Observations made actually don't bear this out.

    I speculate that even at the quantum level, which appears to us to be truly random, is NOT random. If the universe state could be restored, even quantum events would play out exactly as before.

    That's a guess. How could we ever test it?

    Even if quantum events did NOT play out exactly as before, would it matter? Quantum uncertainty has no real bearing on the macroscopic world.

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    The uncertainty principle applies to the realm of the subatomic. It doesn't enter into the Newtonian realm in actual practice. This is the mistake many make with regard to these things.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit