Why did my old friend do this to our friendship? Please help me understand.

by mlj 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stillin
    stillin

    I would suggest this:

    Take a good look at some of the material that has been laid out for you here. Let your friend know that you, too are "studying" the JW beliefs and that you are truly amazed at what you are finding. You begin to see what he is attracted by. He will feel that "Holy Spirit" has begun its' work with you and possibly that he is an instrument of the holy spirit. This may "level the playing field" and give you a position from which you can truly help your friend.

    There are some serious issues and inconsistencies in this religion. If you really want to help your friend, you may have to "get your hands a little dirty." But what you have seen so far, the control that they exert over thier rank-and-file, can also be seen from the inside as a protection for the "faithful." They turn off their thinking ability and simply trust that this earthly organization is looking out for their best interests.

    Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit. A man-made organization is a man-made organization.

  • nelly136
    nelly136

    your friend has probably been hanging with jws for a while if hes got to the shun old friends stage,and if hes got to the quite smoking and shun friends stage then his assimilation has probably progressed to where hes about to be baptised and hes earning his brownie points for conversion.

    sometimes the dubs latch onto someone needy/vulnerable as theyre an easy hit for a quick conversion, they find that all the attention they got before they were baptised very quickly dissipates once theyre baptised and theyre no longer the hot stuff they were as potential converts.

    it may be worth considering if your friend of 16 years is really worth the energy, he didnt give you a thought when he traded you in.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Hi MLJ. Welcome to our nightmare.

    If you want to have some hope of helping your friend out of this cult, there are some rules you need to follow. It's like a game of poker. Get it wrong and you walk away with nothing. I don't have time to run throught it all now, so make sure you call in later.

    First, and most importantly, don't contact him and don't tell him anything negative about the religion, especially right now while you don't know the psychology of what you are dealing with. Do nothing, say nothing. If he gets the slightest suspicion that you are working to extract him from his new cult, he will disappear into the woods like a startled rabbit.

    From your description, I suspect that there is some chance that he may have had some prior contact with JWs, maybe even 'born in', without being baptised until now. If this is the case, he will be very difficult to extract and you would have to consider whether or not it is worth the effort you would have to make. Has he ever done, or said, anything that suggests that might be the case?

    I'll be back later.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • Scarred for life
    Scarred for life

    mlj, this is a cult. Read Steve Hassan's books about cults. Good luck to you. Stay in touch with us. You're not vulnerable to getting sucked in are you? Tell your friends what is going on. You need support.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    He has been brainwashed

  • mlj
    mlj

    Hi All,

    Thanks for the responses. I was reading different topics on this board this morning and let time get away from me. I had to hurry off to work. This sure is an interesting board, but way over my head. I don't understand most of what is being discussed, and you probably don't want to know some of my guesses at the meanings of the abbrev. used. lol But I do appreciate all the responses.

    I called my friend's sister and left a message, so I am waiting for a return call. Hoping she can shed some light as to what may have happened, like y'all said, something may have happened in his life.

    Thanks so much for the concern, but I don't think I am vulnerable to "being sucked in" or whatever it is called, no disrespect intended. I just don't know the proper phrasing.

    I hope it is ok for me to hang around here for a few days. I will post again when I hear back from sister.

    best regards to all

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter

    Welcome to the forum, mlj!

    Please take the time to browse the information at freeminds.org. I suggest starting with the articles on shunning. Shunning applies more to congregation members who leave or get expelled ("disfellowshipped") than to non-members, but what you're experiencing basically is a milder version of the same treatment. As for "why", it's because of the intense control the Watchtower organization exerts over its members.

    Be aware that the Watchtower teaches new converts to expect "resistance" from the worldly family and friends. If you argue or make a scene, that is playing right along with their script. Instead express your concerns kindly, state your objections without casting blame or disparaging his beliefs. Be sure he knows you're there for him, no matter what he does. In other words, don't unto them as they do unto you!

    We understand the hurt. Many here have lost friends and family members this way. Always remember that what your friend is doing and saying comes from the organization's power structure and its influence over him, not from his own heart. All we can do is to remain kind and charitable to them, so that when a day comes that he wants out he will know there is somebody on the outside he can trust.

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    Although his cult indoctrination has hurt you, your friend may need you someday after he realizes that he's in a cult.

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    Hello mlj:

    Cult does some evil shit to people. Research destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonians which the entire world believes has occurred in 586/7BC but only JWs and few other Russell followers (WTS' "first" president) believe it occurred in 607BC. This is their entire pillar for their faith. They calculate the year of Christ's invisible return starting from 607BC and come up with 1914AD and claim that Jesus chose their leaders as the only faithful men on earth in 1919 based on 1914. If you can show him 607BC is wrong, may be he can do some research and then he should see that they are lying to him. If he's really under their spell and thinks that the end is so near and he thinks that he will live forever in paradise it may be too late. You can try to trick him by showing interest in this crap by telling him you're interested and want to learn about how they knew about 1914 and then reason with him by pointing facts as to why 607BC is impossible for that event to happen. If you approach him with intent of showing interest in his new found faith you may be able to help him as he will see an oppertunity to help you otherwise if you approach him as to keep him away from the cult he may draw closer to them and further away from you. Carl Olof Jonsson's "Gentile Times Reconsidered" is an excellent book dealling with the issue of 607BC vs 586/7BC. At this point he must be love bombed by the people he meets and feelss like they're the kindest group he met and all others are being used by Satan to keep him away from gaining life. Wish you all the best in helping your friend

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    The following is a work in progress. It is an attempt to give a non-JW a way to have a discussion with a JW without frightening them off and without having to learn a lot of doctrines and history and stuff that they are not really interested in themselves.

    Cheers

    Chris


    Never try to tell a JW anything. There is a huge amount of information on the internet that you can show them. Don't tell them any of it. They are trained not to listen. They are taught that you are trying to take them away from Jehovah and that you are influenced by Satan.

    So, what can you do???

    Ask questions

    They are trained to teach, so ask questions. Ask in such a way that they feel obligated to answer. They are taught that they have knowledge that is neccessary to survive Armageddon, which is coming soon, and that it is their duty to share it. Use that to your advantage.

    The primary doctrine is that the WT was selected by Jesus, in 1919, to be God's sole channel of communication to mankind in our day. As long as they believe that, the WT has full mind control.

    Everything the WT teaches is believed because of that doctrine. If the WT changed a doctrine tomorrow, they would believe the change, even if it is contradicted by the Bible or Jesus or Jehovah himself. Don't waste your breath discussing scripture with them as they only give lip service to believing the Bible. Your questions should be constructed to steer them towards stating their belief in that doctrine, but try not to put the words in their mouths.

    Some sample questions:

    How do you know the WT is better than the Catholics/Evangelicals/Muslems/Mormons/whatever?

    How do you know Jesus selected them?

    Why did Jesus select them?

    When did Jesus select them?

    Can you show me an article that says that, please?

    All the time asking, "How do you know ...?" type questions to steer them where you want them to go, using what they have said as a basis for the question.

    If they say anything that doesn't seem quite right, ask them for documentation. Every time. This is important. Don't ever let them get away with unsubstantiated statements.

    If they are being extremely evasive and will not own up to their primary doctrine, you might have to state the doctrine and ask if it is true. This should be a last resort as it shows that you have been doing some homework and they will ask how you knew that doctrine. Do not tell them. Just insist on them telling you if it is true. If they deny the doctrine, they are lying to you. Act offended and/or accuse them of lying, depending on your circumstances. There is no point in carrying on the discussion, or changing to another subject, if they are prepared to be dishonest with you.

    Don't get sidetracked.

    Red herrings are a major teaching tool. They are trained to distract you from your subject and they are experts at it.

    Rule #1: Don't let them change the subject.

    Rule #2: Don't change the subject yourself.

    Every time you read a disaster story about a conversation with a JW, they have discussed a multitude of subjects.

    They love diversion tactics. They will:

    Talk volumes about a related subject without discussing your question.

    Ask a question about another subject.

    Attack another religion or religious belief.

    Attack your character.

    Attack your motives.

    JWs never stay with a subject that they are uncomfortable with, and when one tries to change the subject, that is a very good indication that you should stay on that subject. Try to make them feel guilty for attempting to use these tactics on you. Use parallels to religions that they consider to be false if you can. If they have previously denegrated a religion for using the tactics they are using on you, point it out and pour on the guilt for it. Act offended that they should do such a thing to you. Guilt, guilt, guilt.

    If a conversation reaches a stalemate, or one of you needs to go away to do some research, finish the conversation and walk away. Do not start another subject. Do not let them start another subject. They will always want to start another subject, one that they are comfortable with. It is time to go. Now. You can talk about sport or politics or itchy underclothing, but do not discuss another religious subject unless you are an old hand at this game or a cult deprogrammer and know their psychology, tactics, Bible, doctrines and literature better than they do.

    Once they have confirmed that they believe their primary doctrine, it is time to ask them how they know that they were selected in the year 1919 .... and that is another subject. It is an easy subject and once again, you must know how to control the subject and not get sidetracked. They know how to take an easy subject and make it sound really complicated, so you must learn control, control, control, control to keep it simple.

    Remember:

    One subject per conversation.

    Your next discussion should not be on another subject.

    They don't get to choose the subject .... you do. Every time. They are trying to save you .... so they have to answer your questions.

    Never pretend that you have something to teach them. You are the student. You need saving. You are just a little confused about one of their doctrines. Always.

    Don't make statements that you have to prove. Ask questions based on their statements.

    Control, control, control.

    If you are in trouble, get back here and tell us about it.

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