AGuest - I do appreciate your response and will overlook your accusation that I am a "liar".
My SINCERE apologies, dear Ana_dote... and the greatest of love and peace to you! I did not mean to imply that YOU were a liar... but that the THOUGHT was a lie... and from whom it originated. You think that you came to that thought all on your own. You did not, dear one. It was given to you.
My intent was not to purposely spread false information.
Yes, I absolutely understand that that was not YOUR intent. However, I wish for YOU to understand that is was... and IS... the intent of another. To help you understand this, please recall, if you can, how my Lord addressed Peter when Peter tried to talk him out of offering up his life. He knew it wasn't Peter who was speaking, and so he did not tell PETER to "get behind" him. He addressed the one who was using Peter.
When I made the statement that God created sin, it was merely the simpler way of stating my pattern of thinking that was in the form of pondering and questioning. I did not say that this is what I definitely believed and therefore so should everyone else.
No, of course. Although, your statement that "Bottom line: God created sin" COULD have led someone to believe that. But I knew it wasn't coming from you. Because I know from whom such lies originate.
I have some follow-up questions for you that I merely ask out of sincere curiosity:
Absolutely, and I will respond as I am permitted...
"At some point Adam and Eve WOULD have been granted to eat from the Tree." - What possible evidence is there to this supposed fact? There is nothing about it in the actual Bible, so where did you get this information?
I have two responses for you, dear one. The first is something that I received from my Lord and have learned to be absolutely true. And that is his words to me that "All things I tell you are written [but not necessarily in the Bible] but not all things that are written [including in the Bible] are what I will tell you."
The second is that the time will come when death... will be NO MORE. And so that Tree will no longer have its power (to give one the knowledge of death (bad). Will the Tree disappear? Why? Since it will no longer be a threat, why remove it? If there is NO death... there is NO bad... and therefore, no KNOWLEDGE of bad... or death. The Tree will, rather, be rendered impotent and harmless.
the only thing IN (pre)Satan was free will.
I must disagree. Since you seem to have some faith in what's contained in the Bible, I offer you Ezekiel 28:12-17:
" 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;..."
Who were the "enemies in the spirit realm"? You are insinuating a ying/yang theory of there being good and evil inherent in existance.
I am referring to the wicked spirit forces... certain "princes" (i.e., those who have dominion over "principalities" - and thus are called "princes" so that my Lord is the Prince... of princes...) who exist in the spirit realm. Those who fought with the Adversary (against Michael) and so were thrown down to the with him were from among them. Death... is the "last" enemy.
It has been said that God existed before all other things and that he created ALL things.
It has been said. There are a couple/few things that He didn't create, however. The Darkness (Death) was one of them. Life (God) and death existed together. Christ was not created... but born (something created comes out of nothing; something born comes out of something):
" 2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters. 3 And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day." Genesis 1:2-5
Notice: the darkness was not created; it was already there. The light was brought forth by God. God brought a division between the light and the darkness... with the light being called Day and the darkness Night. This is NOT the day and night that we know as a result of the sun and moon, for those luminaries did not even come into existence until the three days later. Do we know what... or rather WHO... this light/Day and darkness/night was/is? We do:
Taking the light first:
"What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it. 6 There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John. 7 This [man] came for a witness, in order to bear witness about the light, that people of all sorts might believe through him. 8 He was not that light, but he was meant to bear witness about that light. 9 The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. 12 However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; 13 and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God." John 1:3-12
and...
" 12 Therefore [Jesus] spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”
The darkness, however, is NOT the nighttime, the hours between dusk and dawn. It is the result of the "shadow"... of death... and since there are just way too many scriptures to post, I will leave you to look that up. Note those, without life... there is only death. Without light, there is only darkness. Christ is the Life (John 14:6)... and so before HE existed... death existed. And he is the Light (John 8:11) so that before HE existed... darkness existed. Since he is the Firstborn of creation... darkness... or death... existed before him. Yet, it was neither born... or created. (And for those who wish to refer to Isaiah 45:7, the word of my Lord is that his is another example of the false stylus of the scribes, who believed, as did initially the man Job... that the Most Holy One of Israel was responsible for both good and evil. He is not. He cannot be. God is love and evil is against the very nature of love.)
Yet, there is not supposed to be evil in God.
Yes, please see above.
Therefore, if God created all things where did the evil come from, if not from God?
God created all things that were created. Death was not created and death... is evil. "Bad". The "bad" that Adam and Eve wanted to "know." (Which is why some Bible versions say the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and EVIL... vs. the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and BAD). Evil = bad = death. Bad = death = evil. Death = evil = bad. The three are synonymous.
Through Adam... sin entered the (physical) world... and through sin... death (i.e., evil, bad). Thus, evil came into THIS (the physical) world... through Adam. It did not exist here before that. However, death did exist in the spirit realm before it entered into the physical realm. The difference is that in that realm... it had no sustainable power over anyone. Spirit beings do not die - unlike flesh, which dies, spirits must be destroyed.
I personally do not wish to say that God is evil, as I do not believe that at all. But that is the conclusion you are causing me to reach based on these comments of there being an unspoken enemy/evil force in existance before this angel turned himself into an opposer of God. Could you please explain this further?
Yes. Before God created earthling man (adham)... there were a myriad of spirit beings that existed. They existed before the physical creation came into existence. They, too, were created with free will (because God is LOVE... and so wants any who serve Him to do so OUT of love... and not out of compulsion by Him). Unfortunately, that free will has resulted in a great power struggle. It started before the creation of man, but became manifest in the Garden of Eden.
Earthling man... humans... are also spirit beings. They are the "seed" of the Woman with whom the Most Holy One of Israel produced His Son, Christ. That seed was destined to inherit God's kingdom along with the Son. Unfortunately, before that seed could be "born"... enemies in the spirit realm vowed to destroy it. Why? Because they want possession of the kingdom... "and all its glory." So, the Most Holy One of Israel created the physical world as a place to hide the seed (that is why the words regarding God's creating the earth are literally translated as "the throwing down of the seed"). To hide them, God formed Adam and Eve and put that seed in them... until such time as He could "fertilize" that seed with HIS seed. That is why Paul spoke of us as "treasures hidden in earthen vessels." Unfortunately, Adam sold that seed to God's number one enemy - Death.
To repurchase that seed, God gave His only-begotten Son (the seed had not yet been "begotten") as a ransom. His life in exchange for the seed. Death took that offer, thinking it would be able to hold Christ for eternity; however, he could not. God gave my Lord the "keys" to Death... and the world of the dead... so that my Lord would not remain captive... but could and did return to the living. Soon after, Christ returned to the spirit realm where the first thing he did was have Satan... and those other enemy spirits... cast out. After that... Satan, who was cast OUT of the spirit realm and into a psuedo-physical state... went out to wage war with the remaining ones of the seed (those who have not died)... which war he is waging to this day.
That is what Paul meant when he wrote:
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, authorities, and powers of the darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12
(also giving the background as to where you obtained this insight?)
Well, primarily I recieved it from my Lord, by the means of the anointing he gave me... with holy spirit. Through that, I can hear him. But it is also written, even in the Bible. 1 John 2:27, 28; John 10:27
If the NEED came for them to die? Wasn't their purpose to fill the earth, subdue it and live forever in peace?
It was. But what if flesh became like the rebellious spirits (which it did)? Those spirits are reserved for destruction, are they not? But God created a MERCIFUL way for Adam to die... by letting him live out his years first. As would be the case with ANY who ate from the Tree without authority (i.e., God's determination that it was time, that doing so would NOT result in their death because they were SPIRITUALLY developed enough). God could have simply zapped Adam or recalled his breath. He did not. He allowed him to live... just not forever.
It seems a bit of a "doubting thomas" move to have a symbolic pre-nuptual. Did God really doubt his creation that much?
Anytime you give something free will... so that you no longer exercise control over it... WISDOM says that such something can rebel... if it CHOOSES to. That is what FREE WILL is all about: CHOICE. The ONLY way God could have GUARANTEED that His creation would NOT rebel... was to REMOVE its free will. Surely you understand that...
Also, even if there was a "need" for them to die, why did God need a mechanism? All throughout scriptural history, there were accounts where he was able to eradicate entire groups of people without an already present mechanism. He made it rain fire to consume, caused the earth to open up and swallow, made the seas come crashing down, and flooded the earth. He didn't need a pre-set mechanism for accomplishing his purpose.
Some of those events are myths, dear one, created by certain people to ward off and/or scare their enemies ("Our God is bigger/badder than your god; see, he won't even hesitate to annihilate his own people! So, you'd better leave us be!"). Those that are not were ONLY after several warnings. And were ususally the result of someone severely harming or oppressing others. Adam and Eve didn't do any of those things - they simply reached out for what was beyond their grasp: to be like God, knowing good AND bad. And they GOT part of what they reached for. They DID get to know good and bad... life AND death. Just didn't get to be like God... knowing both and yet living still.
And again, I am wondering where you're getting the opinion that they would have advanced to the point of being able to eat from the tree. God never said that. And while he may have only said 'this is what will happen IF you eat...' and not 'DO NOT eat...', it doesn't change the fact that they weren't supposed to have it.
They weren't supposed to have it at that time, no. But if there is no more BAD... which is what the kingdom is supposed to accomplish... then either there will be no more [Good/Bad] Tree... or it won't have its power. I mean, that's just common sense, isn't it? Since NO ONE WILL DIE... what, then, would be the point in REMOVING the tree? What would be the point in restricting its fruit? Eaters can't die... so the fruit will have no POWER. Since all will know good (life)... and some will have known good (life) AND bad (death)... by means of having been resurrected... what would be the point?
"Just because somehthing IS "wonderful" doesn't mean all should have access to it. Certainly, you understand that." - Good point. I do understand that. But it doesn't quell my curiosity as to the specifics of how everything came about.
I totally agree!
"Had they waited, however, and listened to the Most Holy One of Israel... and let Him build them up and strengthen them SPIRITUALLY... which He would have accomplished by allowing them to eat freely from the Tree of Llife (which is the Tree that spirit beings eat from TO live indefinitely)... then at some point they COULD have eating from the Tree of Knowledge..." - again, what is your source for this?
My Source is my Lord and Master, the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel and my Heavenly Father, JAH of Armies...
while I understand your being upset, I don't give Satan and Death "the benefit of the doubt". I do not in any way support their false teachings.
Actually, dear one... you did. Unknowingly, perhaps, but certainly. And you did support their false teaching (i.e., "the Bottom Line: God created sin"). THINK about it...
I find it somewhat unpleasantly familiar, though, that you apparently feel that no one is allowed to question God.
Whoa, wait! Who ever said THAT? Abraham questioned the Most Holy One of Israel. As did Moses. As did Job. Where did you get that I said that? (And where did you question God? My apologies, but I didn't see any "questioning" - I saw a conclusion - i.e., "the Bottom Line is...")
Even faithful men in the Bible questioned God directly and were allowed to do so, even persuading God to make adjustments to his decided course of action.
Ummm... I'm not so sure about that. They questioned Him, yes. But the course of action... although perhaps delayed a spell... did not change.
I do not wish to say that God is evil and if you look at the context of what I wrote, I wasn't actually saying that God definitely 100% DID create sin.
Again, my apologies. I misunderstood your words... "Bottom Line: God created sin." Usually, "bottom line" means... in the end... the conclusion is... etc.
I said that it was a pondering/thought.
You did... and I took that into consideration. It just seemed to ME that the CONCLUSION of your pondering/thinking... was what you stated as being the "bottom line." My apologies for misunderstanding...
I have reached no conclusions as to what I believe.
Then probably the term "bottom line" wasn't what you really meant...
And even if I DID determine that I believed God to have created sin, isn't that my "God-given" free will to do so?
It most certainly is... and I certainly gave you that. Like I said, I assumed (and rightly, I believe, though you may deny it)... based on YOUR words of conclusion that you had indeed come to that belief. I simply exercised MY free will to give you the truth of the matter. Whether you change your conclusion or not as a result in YOUR choice... based on YOUR free will.
It does not put you in a position to judge me as a liar to believe what I am resigned to believe based on the information I have gathered.
I did not judge you... as a liar or otherwise. I stated that your THOUGHT was false... and a lie (which it is)... which wasn't surprising... because of its source... its originator.
And again, as you pointed out to OTWO, I still don't understand what they were being "protected" from.
From Death. And, unfortunately, the one who was supposed to protect them... the Edenic Cherub who came to be known as Satan and Devil... ended up delivering them right into Death's hands.
I hope this helps and bid you peace, dear Ana_dote.
A slave of Christ,
SA
