I like you, ana_dote. You will fit right in here. Good replies.
random thought/pondering
by ana_dote 28 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
AGuest
Aguest, Thank you for the answers --
Your are quite welcome, dear Donut... and the greatest of love and peace to you!
Maybe I should clarify what I meant when I asked if death was eternal.
Yes, of course. Please do.
I meant eternal as in having no beginning or origin. If I read you correctly it seemed to imply that Sovereign God did not create Death/Darkness - that Death/Darkness, an actual spirit entity not an abstract idea, always existed like God himself.
Yes.
If I understood that correctly I was wondering in what way then Death was subservient to God - if they were co-eternal.
Death is subservient in that although Death has NO hold over the Most Holy One of Israel (i.e., Death cannot destroy God)... God does have dominion over Death (i.e., He can control Death, as well as destroy Death... and does both).
I am also wondering if there is a way to reconcile this concept with what is written by Isaiah the prophet where the Word of God recorded as saying - "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
I believe I addressd that above (or thought I did - if not there, perhaps somewhere else). However, the word of my Lord as to this verse is to look to Jeremiah 8:8. True, the Light was formed (and NOT created)... but the Darkness was there; indeed, his "shadow" was "over the watery deep." To say, however, that God created evil is to say that unrighteousness is IN the Most Holy One of Israel. That is a LIE. It does, however, "explain" things that earthling has very often been called upon to explain (i.e., "Why do little children die, Mommy?" "Well, God 'took' them, my child...") but cannot. Death is the one who takes little children - God is the One who ultimately SAVES them... FROM Death.
Also as a follow-up to my earlier inquiry about animal kind verses mankind in his original state. If I am reading correctly you are saying that the garden was not necessarily an earthly place but part of the spirit realm.
Absolutely.
How is it then that animal kind being of flesh and red blood can exist within it?
The word of my Lord to you, dear one, is how do you come to believe that there were animals IN the garden? I am directed to help you take a look at it, as it is set forth in the Bible, so that you can put faith in what I am to share:
OUTSIDE the garden: Vegetation created on 3rd day (Gen. 1:11-13). Animals created on 5th day (Gen 1:20-23). Man created on 6th day and allowed to eat vegetation outside the garden (Gen 1:27-31).
Garden "planted" on what day? The 7th day because (1) the 6th day had already concluded, with no mention of a garden being planted, and (2) such planting was a "rest" from God's CREATIVE works and thus part of His "restful" works because He is, after all, a gardener. (Gen. 1:31-2:3; John 15:1). So, animals are OUTSIDE of the garden. Now. the garden...
INSIDE the garden: NO vegetation, yet (Gen. 2:5, 8, 9, 15)... and no animals. Only the man and woman, who were formed OUTSIDE the gardenm where placed INSIDE the garden.
The problem is in earthling man's attempt to set the chapters and verses of the Bible. Let's take a look:
As it is compiled, verse 1 of Chapter 2 starts a new chapter; HOWEVER:
A. That verse... as well as verses 2-4... are actually part of Chapter 1. Chapter 2 SHOULD start at verse 2:5. From THAT point, the writer is speaking of a place where there was NO vegetation... because God had not yet brought rain upon that "place"... because there was not yet any man to cultivate THAT "place." So, God (1) planted a garden in THAT "place" (Gen. 2:8 - which does NOT include the WTBTS word "Further") ... (2) made vegetation grown in THAT "place" (Gen. 2:9)... and then (3) PUT the man in that "place." Verses 8-17 occurred AFTER the man was formed.
B. Chapter 2, verses 18-24 occurrent BEFORE the garden was planted, on the 5TH day... versus the 7th day, when the garden was planted (AFTER which the man AND woman were placed IN it). SO... God not only formed the animals OUTSIDE the garden, but Adam NAMED them OUTSIDE the garden, before it (the garden) was even formed (Gen. 2:18-24; Gen. 1:27)
Finally, we know that the anmials weren't in the garden for the very TRUTH that if they were... THEY would not die. It was only those who ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad that would die... and the animals did not eat such. However, it was the earth OUTSIDE the garden that was cursed and, therefore, everything in IT as well (because the animals ate FROM that cursed land's produce and since the vegetation itself carried death IN it... those who ate OF it would ALSO die - unlike those who ate from the Tree of Life - Gen. 3:22).
Again, I would say to you as I would say to ANYONE that if one wants to know the TRUTH... one should go TO the Truth (John 14:6). Because as my Lord said to me, "All that I telll you IS written... but not all that is WRITTEN is what I will tell you." I have come to learn that THS is the truth, what he has said to me in this regard.
Also in regard to what you said about Christ - would it be correct to say that on earth Jesus was in the image of Adam and not in the image of God?
His flesh, yes. That is WHY it could carry sin and death IN it... and thus, die. The WTBTS erroneously teaches that Christ could NOT die, that he had to be killed. They are wrong. It is only because he was made in the likeness of sinFUL flesh... that he COULD be killed (i.e., if his flesh were perfect, whatever they did to him would have been healed so that he did not die).
His SPIRIT... no. Not at all. And the Most Holy One of Israel IS a SPIRIT. Adam, too, was a spirit being (i.e., in God's image)... when he was first created. He, too, was a spirit, placed IN an [uncursed] earthen vessel (Gen. 2:7). He later became a spirit encased in a cursed earthen vessel ("long garment of skin"), which vessel HIS spirit (now, no longer "perfect") was not able to "conquer" and thus release itself from. Christ is just the opposite, at least as far as him coming from the spirit realm to the physican realm: he was a spirit encased in a cursed (sinFUL) earthen vessel... which vessel he CONQUERED... by means of conquering the death IN it... by means of his perfect SPIRIT... and so was released from such and so was able to put [back] on... the "white robe."
As always thank you for your replies.
Absolutely NO problem, dear one. I am YOUR servant and it has been MY privilege to share this with you... just as I received it from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, which his Father and mine, the Most Holy One of Israel... granted him to do when He gave my Lord ALL authority... in heaven AND on earth!
Again, I bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
ana_dote
wow.
um....
yeah. just wow.
-
AGuest
Dearest Ziddina... may you have peace!
The whole "Adam & Eve" thing NEVER HAPPENED...
I would have to disagree... NOT based on the Bible, however, but based on what my Lord has shared with me and shares with me yet... which very often refutes the Bible.
Just to give you a preview, the bible itself is only around 3,500 years old...
Actually, the Bible is only about 1,700 years old (it wasn't even canonized until the late 4th/early 5th centuries a.d. John's Revelation wasn't even accepted and added until about 419. It contents, however, cover events the precede the Egyptian, Minoan, indeed even the Sumerian (which is the oldest known) civilizations. Chronologically, Job fits somewhere in the early- to mid-parts of the accounts recorded in Genesis.
i.e., the bible claims to be an absolute authority, yet it's a miserable "Johnny-come-lately" 'holy' book - there are religious texts upon the walls of the Egyptian pyramids that are around a thousand years older than the bible...
Not that I wish to defend it, per se, but the Bible makes no such claim. It is earthling man who make this claim, and erroneously so.
And, of course, Goddess[es] worship is at least 35,000 years old - at least TEN TIMES older than 'the bible'...
Which is why Israel was warned against it...
it sure as hell isn't the REAL word of the "REAL" 'god'...
Now, THIS I can vehemently agree with... and have stated on this Board SO many times I simply cannot count them! Unfortunately, it appears that since I do profess a union with Christ, you assume I also believe the Bible to be (1) inspired by God... which I do not... and (2) the word of God... which I also do not. Not in the least, with regard to both.
Again, I wish you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
-
AGuest
Dearest AFenderson... may, too, you have peace!
Given the above, and the fact that there will be millions (?) of people around the instant paradise-earth is reestablished, what's to make one believe that some other "perfect" human wouldn't F it up big-time, yet again, within say--five minutes?
It won't be permitted. Such ones will be immediately cast OUT of "paradise". As were Adam and Eve. The millions that you mention will be INSIDE the garden ("paradise"), which will be spread over the entire earth (as it was supposed to be by Adam...). Thus, the "outside" will decrease and diminish rapidly, until it no longer exists (Revelation 22:15; Isaiah 11:9). God willed for all harm to be removed from the spirit realm and it was: when Satan and his angels were cast OUT of that realm. It will be that way for the physical realm, too. Thus, "... may your will be done, as heaven ALSO upon the earth...").
Personally, I get it that folks don't want to put their faith in religion (and they well SHOULDN'T). I don't get it, however, that folks don't really seem to want an earth... heck, an existence... were NO ONE does ANY kind of "harm" to ANYONE. Not just no war, but NO harm. Of ANY kind. That really is how it is now in the spirit realm. With the exception of the few that were cast out, MOST spirits really only want to "minister"... serve. That is because the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, is a God of SERVICE... not a god of war, etc., which earthling man has made Him out to be for their own purposes. The PROBLEM is that, unfortunately, for the MOST part earthling man has shown himself to be UNWORTHY of service from the Most High God. By showing that they're pretty much unable TO serve... anyone but themselves and their own interests. True, not ALL of mankind has shown that, but MOST have.
The Most High God, however, is a God of service... a God who want to SERVE His people... not be served BY His people. How do we know? Well, we can look at the "covenant" He offered to Israel. Or... we can look to Christ. And if we can't see HIM... then we CAN look at what he was recorded to have said:
"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." John 13:13-16
He DEMONSTRATED that he who would be GREATEST among us... must be LEAST. Unfortunately, MOST of mankind is not contect with being "least." Indeed, they will to have EVERY advantage over their "brother," whether it be superiority of race/national origin, social or economic class, education, the "tent" they live in... or the very car they drive. One of our MAIN downfalls... and the Adversary is VERY aware of this... is our tendency to live our lives in comparison to others... rather than in glory to God.
If your answer is "Well, Satan won't be there, so it'll be all good," then you're admitting that it wasn't really Adam or Steve's fault in the first place, it was Satan's--
That is another WTBTS lie. True Satan is the "accuser" of those who belong to Christ, and accuses them of only "loving" God for what He will do for them and would curse Him to His very face should He removed His protecitve "hedge." For his "bearing [of] false witness against a brother" he has already been judged. However, he only ENTICES us to sin... by drawing out various desires that are already IN us. Desires that WE have not gotten the master over... but WE have let remain. He will be destroyed for his part in misleading us TO sin... but we will have to answer for the resultant sin.
I mean, they didn't know God from Adam (well, you know what I mean), they never saw God
You are in error. They indeed heard and saw the Most Holy One of Israel... because they were yet WITHOUT sin. (Gen. 3:8; the word "voice" is incorrect. They heard the SOUND of the Most Holy One walking about. And they hid from His FACE.)
but here's this talking snake they can see telling them the fruit's all good--
Two errors: (1) it was not a snake but a seraph... which is a "flying, fiery, serpent")... which is not a snake, not even an animal at all, but a spirit being, and (2) although the serpent DID lie and tell them that they would not die, he never told them that the fruit was good. EVE determined that it was good for food... as a result of her unchecked DESIRE to keep LOOKING at it. Gen. 2:6; James 1:13-15 Had she kept in mind what God TOLD her... and STOPPED LOOKING AT IT... her "desire" would have ceased... and no sin would have occurred. The Adversary merely exploited what was already IN Eve - her desire. Like pedophiles who, instead of conquering their DESIRE... look at child porn. And, yes, dear one... it IS the same thing. Same as drugs, alcohol, unfettered sexual appetite, food, money, thirst for power... and anything else we can't control... because we can't control our DESIRE... FOR such thing. That's why MOST feel "bad" after giving in to... well, whatever it is they "give in" to.
if this was the first lie ever,
That wasn't the lie. They LIE was that they would not die, but would become "like" God... KNOWING good AND bad... without dying. They DID come to know good (life) AND bad (death)... and died as a result of that knowledge.
and they didn't have the knowledge of good and bad,
It was about the "knowledge of"... just like it isn't about "taking in knowledge of" God and the One whom He sent forth, Christ. It was about KNOWING good and bad... just as it is about KNOWING the True God AND the One whom He sent forth. You're reading the wrong Bible "version" as to these things.
they didn't know what a lie was
Now, where'd you get THAT from? Of course they knew what a lie was. Adam even told one: "The woman... she MADE me eat."
and free will is a cop-out.
The COP OUT is when folks says "free will is a cop out." What they REALLY mean is that "Adam and Eve weren't responsible for their actions... and neither am I. In BOTH cases, it is/was GOD who was responsible... because He MADE me the way I am." Cop out.
It'd be like taking a 5-year old, having their mom tell them not to each the chocolate ice cream that is sitting in a bowl in front of them because it's poison, then having their father come in and tell them to go ahead and eat it because it tastes good and it won't hurt them--and then condemning all of mankind from that point forward when the kid goes for the chocolate.
Surely you jest. First, in your scenario Mom and Dad have a union. They're on the same "side." God and Satan were NOT on the same side. Second, you're suggesting that "Mom" (God) would put a bowl of chocolate ice cream in the child's face... as opposed to what actually happened, which is better compared to, say, a bowl of toxic glue which, to some kids, apparently DOES taste good but WIILL kill you... albeit perhaps slowly... which glue serves a purpose for MOM and so she SAYS "Don't touch it, Timmy, because if you do you will die!"... along with the assumption that she put it in the child's face... which she didn't... she put it in the center of the table and then told the child he could play with every OTHER craft item on the table EXCEPT that one... and there was a WHOLE lot of other craft stuff...
... and then you have "Dad" (let's say, for the sake of comparing apples to apples - no pun intended - "Evil Stepdad") coming in, sees the kid staring at the bowl of glue (although he utterly surrounded by paper, and crayons, and paints and every other sort of craft item you can think of... but apparently he can't take his eyes off that darn glue - it's all white and creamy and all... or maybe because it's the one craft item he CAN'T have... but only "'cause 'Mom' said so" ... and so wants it all the more, although, for his OWN sake he should just let it go, and besides, he's got SO many other things to play with...
... and rather than saying, "What'cha lookin' at, [youngish step] son? Oh, the glue? Yeah, well that's for pasting stuff, not eating, and will kill you if you eat it, or make you VERY sick so, yeah, Mom was right and you should listen to her and play with somethine else"....
... Evil Stepdad instead says "Glue? Hmmmmm... oh, yeah - GOOD stuff, son!! You want some? Sure, go ahead and eat it; it WON'T kill you. Mom just told you that because SHE knows that if you eat it you'll be able to make pasted hearts JUST LIKE HER" (followed by an evil stepdad "brruhhaaaaah" laugh)... when he knows VERY well it will absolutely kill the child...
And so the child eats... and later dies. (Can I say "duh" here, without offending you?)
But you want to blame "Mom." Seriously?
I hope I've given you glue... ummmm, I mean food... for thought, dear AF... and again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
-
AGuest
may you all have unabashed neopolitan amounts of peace with cherries on top
The same to you, dear ana_dote (although, I don't care for cherries atop my anything... at least not the marachino kind - WAY too sweet!)
lol thank you everyone for your discussion and thoughts! I guess I sure picked an interesting subject :-P
You did. Unfortunately, I don't think you considered that anyone would respond, at least not anyone who believed in God AND wasn't a "Bible" christian.
and while I don't really have the mental energy to address everyone's comments individually, I do have a major issue with one thing that was said in particular by AGuest (and no offense is meant by this).
Absolutely NO offense taken, none at all! You have EVERY right to address comments posted on your thread...
You CANNOT say the Bible is NOT "God's" book and then use it to argue FOR God. It is a complete contradiction and weakens the foundation for anything you say.
I disagree. While there are certain things IN the Bible that may have originated with God... or may just be sound wisdom... that does not mean that the Bible itself is God's book. It is not. The Bible is a compilation of books. 66 of them, to be exact. It is really is not a book all on its own (although many a so-called "christian" would LOVE to say that it is...)
The Bible IS the Christian source.
Ummmm... no. The Bible is the "source" for false christs and false prophets. CHRIST... is the Source for christians.
And I guarantee you that the Bible would not apply Ecclesiastes 12:12 (to the making of many books there is no end...) to ITSELF.
May I ask: what is the source of your "guarantee"?
It would be discrediting itself, yet it claims to be an accurate book FROM God.
The Bible makes NO such claim. None. I BEG of you: tell me where the Bible makes such a claim!
No book that was claiming to be a credible book would group ITSELF with books that it claims are a waste of time.
The Bible makes no such claim. Ever. Anywhere in it. I BEG you... show me PLEASE... where does the Bible make such claim???
Just so you know, your "explanation" of the whole....adam/flesh/spirit/nakedness thing....kinda hokey. You might as well be trying to tell us the trinity doctrine is real.
Ummmm.... I would NEVER tell you that. Ever. Others, maybe. But not me. You can ask virtually anyone here. Or read my posts. Of that you may NEVER fear. But I can't say I would deny the "hokey-ness" of what I share. I mean, to each his own opinon, you know?
And also...I'm guessing that your source for the "name of Death" is the "Lord"?
My Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, yes.
Again, no offense, but using your own personal "revelations" as your main source of dispensing what you perceive to be truth is not going to convince anyone that what you say IS truth.
Ummmm... I really am not trying to convince anyone of anything. There are plenty of others in the world to do that. I am merely sharing what I receive from my Lord. Whether you hear... or refrain. And, again, absolutely NO offense taken, truly!
Unfortunately, it is that precise claim and reasoning that leads to the creation of dangerous cults.
Not quite. I am not creating anything or asking you to join anything. Truly. My message is that Christ, the "Door" is still standing open... and calling... and if you hear the call... you should, contrary to what religion HAS taught you... answer. That is there is anything TO join, it is the Congregation of the Firstborn, made up of the members of the Body of Christ... which consists of persons who have received holy spirit and thus really ARE "christians" (i.e. chosen/anointed persons)... and not just folks who call themselves that... keeping in mind, however, that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with ME... because I do not choose ANYONE... just as no one can choose CHRIST... by that HE calls... and from those CHOOSES... whomever HE wishes to.
Me? I'm just a good-for-nothing servant who responded to a false statement: that God created sin. That is a lie and, unfortunately, I'm not easily able to let lies against/about God or Christ just go by. Sorry, but I just can't do it. Not if it comes to my attention. Hopefully, YOU understand that and I have not offended YOU.
I just broke away from one of them.
Good for YOU!!!!! I would say, "Praise JAH," but you may be one of those who "don't want anything to do with God"... and so I'll refrain, for now.
I don't need to get sucked into another.
Indeed! I vehemently AGREE! Ask ANYONE here... I am the LAST person to want you to get sucked into another religion!! To the contrary, MY message is that God, through Christ, calls us OUT of religion ("Get OUT of her!")... and that once he DOES... we must REMAIN "clean" and NOT go back and "defile" ourselves again with "women" (i.e., the daughters of Babylon). By ALL means... STAY OUT. Do NOT touch another "unclean" thing! If you MUST touch something... TOUCH CHRIST... and NOTHING and NO ONE else!! Not even ME. I am YOUR servant... NOT your leader!
So while I DO appreciate you sharing your thoughts....perhaps you should present them more as your opinion and not as "truth", as there is no way possible to PROVE your statements.
Again, you are in error. There is absolutely a way to prove what I present. Question is... do you have the FAITH to "test" that proof?
It is the same as the JW's or any other religion who uses the Bible to prove the Bible is accurate. You need more than the source in question to prove the credibility of the source.
Dear one, I only use the Bible for ONE purpose: to provide a response for those who STILL walk by SIGHT (and thus, need to 'see it in writing')... rather than walk by FAITH (and thus, have their eyes on the things UNSEEN). I know it's your thread, but you're not the only one who read it. How it works is, if I use the Bible, I get responses like yours - if I don't use the Bible, I get "Where is that written in the Bible?" Thus are the little children.
Please understand: I've been through that whole "damned if I do; damned if I don't" Bible thing. Trust me. I wish I could share ALL that I get without using even ONE reference to the Bible. Alas, my time here has shown me that it is not to be... not yet, anyway. Perhaps, though, the day WILL come...
i hope everyone has fluffy angel dreams with cheery pan flute music on repeat in their brains....
OOoooooh, that sounds SO... well, Bible-y. (Well, okay, mixed with a little paganism....)
And please know that I have NOTHING to offer that will "hurt" you, as dear OTWO has suggested, so you have nothing to fear from ME. I can only put it out there. YOU are MOST welcome to research/look it up. A simpler way, however, would be to simply go to the Christ himself and ASK. ANYONE can do that. I did it and, well, here I am.
Again, peace to you.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
A.Fenderson
AGuest: thanks for taking the time to reply. I only have one brief point of disagreement with your statements that I'll bring up:
Now, where'd you get THAT from? Of course they knew what a lie was. Adam even told one: "The woman... she MADE me eat."
This happened after the event in question, and thus can't be considered proof that Adam knew what a lie was before he was shown how to do it.
-
OnTheWayOut
The whole "Adam & Eve" thing NEVER HAPPENED...
I would have to disagree... NOT based on the Bible, however, but based on what my Lord has shared with me and shares with me yet... which very often refutes the Bible.
Well, let me just cast my Bible aside and wait for you to get your golden plates and write what we need to know in "The Book of AGuest," or it could be named the "Book of Mormon, Volume 2."
Oh, and I am going for my peace now, a peace of cake.
-
AGuest
Dearest AFender... may you have peace!
This... can't be considered proof that Adam knew what a lie was before he was shown how to do it.
I must ask you: can some who "doesn't know how to" lie... lie? True, it might be lesson learned in the very instance of telling a first lie, but even a small child (one who can't even speak in full sentences, yet)... knows when they're lying. And I'm not speaking about a small child who misspeaks (i.e., thinks what they're saying is the truth, although it isn't). That isn't lying. A lie requires intent... to deceive and/or to have someone be deceived ("I didn't do it"!). Ask any parent. That child knows... tiny though he or she may be... when it tells its first lie... that it indeed lied. And the parent knows, too. Why? Usually because it's written all over his/her face. You see, as with most of us, before we know how to do it WELL... lies really aren't all that hidden. Adam and Eve TRIED to hide. How'd that work out for them?
let me just cast my Bible aside...
GOOD idea, dear OTWO... and the greatest of love and peace to you!! GREAT idea! Indeed, cast it aside and then go directly to the SOURCE!! DO it!! (John 5:39, 40; John 10:27; Revelation 19:13)
and wait for you to get your golden plates and write what we need to know in "The Book of AGuest,"
Yikes! Why in the WORLD would you wanna do THAT?? Or think I would want... or want YOU... to do that?? Dear OTWO, I'm nobody. Really. I have NO delusions about that. Indeed, if I have learned ANYTHING from all of this, I've learned that. I am nothing more than another voice crying out in the wilderness. There is a MUCH better Way: Christ. You really CAN simply go to HIM. Then, you need not worry or concern yourself with what ANYONE writes... whether it be Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Matthew, Paul, James, Jude, John... or whoever. Including, foremostly, me. Please, do NOT put faith in what I share here; that is NOT why I share it. I share it because it is the TRUTH. Put your FAITH in the One who shares such things WITH me. Indeed, I would LOVE for that to happen. Even, perhaps, for YOU to pick up this "work."
MY wish? For the entire WORLD of mankind to hear and see and get these things... for EVERYONE to get to the point where the following is completely fulfilled:
"And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘K NOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of JaHVeh." Jeremiah 31:34
It is for THAT reason that I... one who IS hearing... join the Spirit and Bride when THEY say... to ALL who are thirsting and anyone who wishes:
"Come! Take life's water... FREE!"
Again, I bid you... and dear AFender... peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA