random thought/pondering

by ana_dote 28 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

First of all, may you have peace.
Peace to you, as well, dear OTWO... and thank you sincerely for YOUR wish of peace!
Simple thoughts: The Bible shows that God indicated that in the day of his eating from that tree, Adam would die.
Yes, this is true. And Adam did die.
The Bible doesn't say that the tree had something likened to poison that humans couldn't eat.
What? No, it doesn't. Where did you get that from? What WOULD occur is that as a result of eating their eyes would be opened AND they would know good AND bad. But they would NOT be like God... because UNLIKE God... THEY weren't going to be able to conquer death... and so still live in spite of knowing bad (death).
It is written to indicate that it was a test. If that is not the intention, then isn't it wonderful that God doesn't help us out with His book by making things clear for us?
Ummm... first, it's not His book, dear one, truly. If it were HIS book... it wouldn't be used to justify all of the heinous things done because of it. Or cause the "dividing of the Christ" that it has. That one book has cause FAR more crimes against humanity... and much more division among mankind... particularly among those who call themselves "christians"... than virtually any other book ever written, compiled, and/or published. Some would argue that the Quran is close if not surpassing. However, the Quran does not claim to create "christians" who are SUPPOSED to be known... by their LOVE... not their hate or disregard for those not like them. I ask you: do you REALLY think the Most Holy One of Israel would be behind such a book? What does that BOOK say?
"As regards anything besides these, my son, TAKE A WARNING: to the making of many books there is NO end... and MUCH DEVOTION to them is wearisome to the flesh." Ecclesiaste 12:12
A better course? Go right to the Source, the One about whom the book BEARS WITNESS: Christ. Much cleaner, simpler, truthful... less confusing, divisive, concocted.
Second, that book DOES speak to that intention (or rather, to the contrary of that intention). Per James, the fleshly brother of my Lord:
"... let no one say: 'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot be tried... NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TRY ANYONE. But each one is tried... by being drawn out and baited by his OWN desire. Then, the desire, when it has become fertile... gives birth to sin; in turn, sin... when it has been ACCOMPLISHED, brings forth death." James 1:14, 15
And this was EXACTLY the case with Adam and Eve: they both DESIRED to be like God... KNOWING good AND bad. And the Adversary KNEW this (because apparently they kept looking at the dang tree so AS to desire it)... so first drew Eve out and baited HER... and she in turn enticed her husband. As a result, they BOTH ate... although they were warned NOT to... thus giving fertility to their desire... and resulting in their sin. The sin, then, being accomplished... resulted in their death. God didn't do a single thing... except to warn them NOT to eat... and, as free-willed agents, they CHOSE to ignore that warning and instead CHOSE to listen to the Liar.
The fact that God pronounced punishment upon the humans for disobedience according to the Bible indicates that the Bible is telling us that God provided a test that they failed.
Soooooo, you're saying that, for example, you have a revved up speedboat... which you tell your 16-year-old son and 14-year-old daughter (who have nothing to do but lay around all day, play with the dog... and the pony... maybe take a swim in the lake, etc.)... that they CANNOT drive... no, don't even get IN it... because NEITHER OF THEM KNOW HOW TO DRIVE... and NEITHER OF THEM CAN HANDLE THIS BOAT... so that if they DO try... they WILL kill themselves... but your tween-age daughter lets the 50-year-old "Eddie Haskell" babysitter... who should KNOW better... convince her to get in and start the motor because... well, because he's Eddie Haskell and so really wants to see what they'll look like "all banged up"... and your idjit teen son comes along and instead of telling his sister to get OUT of the dang boat... gets IN with her... AND hits the throttle... and as a result they end up in a crash - OF COURSE - that injures them both SO severely - OF COURSE - that, yep, they might not die this very day, but they most certainly won't live as long as they could have... indeed, they've probably cut off half their lifespan... and so you bring charges against Eddie Haskell, that snake... and banish the kids to the back of the property where they now must do chores everyday because they can't be trusted in the part of the yard that leads to the boathouse... and YOU'RE the "badguy"??? Seriously???
It wasn't the fruit that gave the woman cravings for her husband and it wasn't the fruit that banished them from the garden.
No, it wasn't. But cravings for one's husband ain't so bad, are they? I mean, if the husband ISN'T dominating? It's when the husband is "dominating" that is sucks... which God told Eve Adam WOULD be (but NOT because God MADE him that way - his ACTIONS showed he was already "dominating"). And banishing them from the Garden was an absolute MUST - I mean, who knows what other mess these two yokels would have gotten themselves... and all of mankind in?
Dear OTWO - you are forgetting how old Adam and Eve WERE. Dear one... they came into the world as adults... PHYSICALLY. They started out with adult BODIES, yes. But they had a LOT to learn. That is WHY God was spending time WITH Adam - the same as He spent it with Christ. Where in the WORLD do people get that they were "adult" SPIRITUALLY? Or MENTALLY? Or EMOTIONALLY? Or PSYCHOLOGICALLY? How COULD they have been? God warned them to stay away from the Tree... to PROTECT them!
Also, God said "in the day of your eating from it" and that didn't happen.
Can you have the creative days logically being more than a 24-hour span... and then turn around and confine THIS "day" to a 24-hour span? Really? Isn't that a bit contradictory?
The narrative doesn't explain that, but the Bible seems to indicate the simple message that God doled out a different punishment.
Not sure what you mean here...
It gets confusing because that all means that the snake didn't lie about the death part nor about them "being like God" in knowing good and evil.
Oh, he lied. They did die... in their "day." And although they did come to know good (life) AND evil (death)... they didn't become like God. They died as a result of knowing death. God knows death... and yet, does not die. NOT the same thing...
If God wants you, ana_dote, to know some alternative to what is written, then He can give you the message the same way He gave it to AGuest.
YES!! YES!! Indeed!!! ASK!!
If God doesn't contact you in that way, then don't worry about anyone that says that He has contacted them.
This is absolutely TRUE... and why I tell folks... DON'T LISTEN TO ME. LISTEN to the One whom God SAID to listen to! Please! By ALL means... DO!
Nothing personal, may you have peace and all that stuff.
Of course not. Absolutely nothing personal taken, truly... and, again, peace to YOU... and your entire household... as well!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
cameo-d

Dear Ana-Dote
May you have peace and make mine pie!
Perhaps you could begin your search in realizing that many of these objects in the story are actually metaphors.
Like the "tree" for instance. Is it really an apple tree or an oak tree? What other meaning could a "tree" have? Well, tree is also used to define lines of genetics. Like a "family tree". Could this tree have been referring to a genetic mix of human and angels?
There has been much written concerning the implication that Eve first mated with the angel Satan and that Cain was the product of that union.
And as the "fruit" of that tree was the knowledge of both good AND evil....could it be that originally the world was good and perfect, but this union and offspring from an alien union changed all that?
Could it be that the reason we are all so distraught in finding that we have been lied to, and feel so foolish and gullable, is because we were originally hard wired in the brain to accept everything as truth because we were not created to be exposed to lies? Lies have caused nothing but confusion. Can you imagine how different our lives would have been and how far advanced civilization could be if we had only been told truth all of our lives and life was only good?
Did humans really need to know lies in order to appreciate truth?
Has it been necessary to our development to know both good AND evil?
Peace to your household and all your animals as you ponder more questions.
OnTheWayOut

OTWO:
The Bible doesn't say that the tree had something likened to poison that humans couldn't eat.
AGuest: What? No, it doesn't. Where did you get that from? What WOULD occur is that as a result of eating their eyes would be opened AND they would know good AND bad.
AGuest (earlier): Again, dear OTWO (and peace to you!)... they weren't being tested... but protected. They didn't NEED to know "bad"... GOOD (i.e., life) SHOULD have been enough for them.
I was cutting to the chase. You said something that led to the conclusion that God was protecting them from the harmful effects of the tree. You can view "a day" in long periods of time but you cannot view "likened to poison" in any figurative way?
I post thoughts contrary to you, AGuest, because here we have a sincere person trying to ask sincere questions and come out of the harmful effects of the WTS, and you come on with your strange stories of Holy Spirit telling you, personally, how it really is. If you stopped to examine the harm your fruit might be doing to people, you might ease off. I have plenty more to say but don't want to derail the subject. I hope you find your peace.
donuthole

aGuest --
A couple of questions based on what you have shared --
Is death/darkness eternal in the same manner that Almighty God is? If so how is death subservient to God?
Can you elaborate more on Adam/Eve enemies? Was their rebellion prior to the creation of man? What was the root of the rebellion?
Genesis indicates that man was created from the dust/earth how does this square with the thought they were spiritual beings that were originally not clothed in flesh? Were they originally something different from the rest of the "animal" creation around them?
-anthony
AGuest

Greetings, dear Donuthole... and the greatest of love and peace to you!
A couple of questions based on what you have shared -
Of course, our Lord permitting me to respond...
Is death/darkness eternal in the same manner that Almighty God is?
If you mean "eternal" as in never/cannot dies/die, no. Because death IS hurled into the Lake of Fire and destroyed, and thus becomes "no more," right? If, however, you mean "eternal" as in "immortal" (which some people do mean)... such as all spirit beings are... then, yes. "Immortal" means does not die... and spirits, including Death, do not die. They CAN, however, be destroyed, which only happens by fire. Water can contain them... but not destroy them. If you mean "eternal" as in had no beginning, per se... that is my understanding.
If so how is death subservient to God?
Hopefully, my answer above covered that? One thing to think of: my Lord said, "ALL authority has been GIVEN me... in heaven and on earth." This would include authority over Death... as he proved when Death was unable to hold him. That authority belonged only to the Father... who gave it to the Son.
Can you elaborate more on Adam/Eve enemies?
They are not enemies of Adam/Eve - they enemies of the seed of the woman that are/are to be fertilized by God's seed. They know that such ones will inherit the kingdom (instead of them)... and so their vocation is to destroy that seed. They are the enemies, then, of ALL of that seed... down to this day. Death... is the "last" enemy. And just like Christ is God's "Chief Agent" of life (i.e., the one who "brokers" life between God and earthling man... Satan is the chief agent of death (i.e., the one who "brokers" death between man and the Destroyer). Christ offered himself to bring mankind back to life (eternal); Satan gave himself over to bring mankind completely to Death. NOT in the flesh (for the flesh is of NO use at all). It is NOT your flesh that the Destroyer wants - it is your SPIRIT (which does not die but must be destroyed).
Was their rebellion prior to the creation of man?
There was not an actual rebellion until these two gave in to Satan's lie. Prior to, there were pinings of a rebellion, which is why the seed was "thrown down" (i.e., "the founding of the world," which took place in order TO hide the seed [of the woman]...). Once Satan got Adam/Eve TO rebel, it was... well, as we say here... "on."
What was the root of the rebellion?
Primarily power (not as in strength, but as in authority over certain "principalities"). If you recall, our Adversary offered our Lord "all the kingdoms of the world"... IF he would bow down and give Satan just one act of worship. The underlying root, however, is jealousy... and the desire of certain spirit beings for what has been promised to the seed. If you recall, the Adversary made challenge with regard to the man Job... which challenge is, in fact, made with regard to ALL of us (the seed, hidden in earthen vessels). He said that... unlike spirit beings, who serve God out of reverence and respect (i.e., they KNOW who the "Sovereign" is... who the "source" of THEIR life force is and so who CAN destroy them, should it come to that... so the WT teaching that God's sovereignty is at issue... indeed, was EVER at issue... is yet another lie! The Most Holy One IS the Sovereign and that has never been nor ever will be an issue. Who INHERITS from Him, however - THAT is an issue)... man would ONLY serve the Most High God IF He (God)... took care of them... made them comfortable... didn't let them suffer, even a little bit... allowed them no pain, no sorrow, etc..
By "man," however, the Adversary meant the seed of the woman that is IN man. He said that such will ONLY serve God in the BEST of circumstances, but that in the WORST of circumstances man would actually deny God and curse Him to His very face. The outplay of THAT accusation is the REAL "universal issue"... and one that hasn't fully played out, yet. Because we must all show, individually, whether that challenge is true regarding us... or not. But it is what makes Satan "the accuser of our brothers..."
Genesis indicates that man was created from the dust/earth how does this square with the thought they were spiritual beings that were originally not clothed in flesh?
Because:
1. Got formed Adam's BODY out of the earth, yes, but blew HIS breath (spirit) INTO that body... so that Adam BECAME a living soul. Prior to that blowing, Adam was a NON-living soul. His life force did NOT come out of the earth... but directly from God.
2. Adam was made in God's IMAGE... and God is a spirit. So, initially, he was of a type of flesh that could "go in and out". He was formed OUTSIDE the Garden, but then placed INSIDE it. The Garden... is part of the spirit realm. This type of flesh was taken from the physical realm; however, its LIFE FORCE came from the SPIRIT realm. Thus, it lived by means of GOD'S blood: holy spirit. When he rebelled, however, God gave Adam and Eve "a long garment of skin"... flesh with ITS blood... to COVER their "nakedness" (the spirit body, which was not previously hidden)... which "garment" enslaved them. They could no longer go in and out between the spirit and physical realms. (Note: He did not give them animal skins - He gave them skin that COVERED their "nakedness"... the spirit, which is not hidden.)
When he came to this world, Christ had this exact same circumstance: a physical body (which he received from Mary)... powered by a life force received directly from God... holy spirit. Thus, both Adam and Christ (as earthling men)... were "half-breeds" - bodies from the earth, with life forces from the spirit realm.
One reason this truth is hard for some to grasp is because many take the term, "Let us make man in our image," to mean that God made MANKIND in His image. He did not. He made Adam and Eve in His image. Everyone after them... was made in ADAM'S image, which he bore AFTER he sinned. (Genesis 5:3; 1 Corinthians 15:49) Thus, we, too, have that "long garment of skin"... flesh with IT'S blood (vs. with God's blood, holy spirit).
Were they originally something different from the rest of the "animal" creation around them?
They were a different "kind"... then, and an even more different "kind" now... as to their bodies, yes. As for their spirits, they have the same source, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies:
"For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and THEY ALL HAVE BUT ONE SPIRIT, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is [vanity]." Ecclesiastes 3:19
I hope this help, dear Donuthole... and may JAH bless!
palmtree67

Marked for later.
ziddina

Ana_dote, you might want to check out this thread, if you haven't done so already...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/191335/1/The-Story-of-Adam-and-Eve-Sexist-Egotistical-and-Guilt-Inducing
And - if you really want to "cut to the chase" and bypass all the soul-searching, bible-minutia-searching, and hand-wringing, check out my post towards the bottom of page 1...
The whole "Adam & Eve" thing NEVER HAPPENED... Just to give you a preview, the bible itself is only around 3,500 years old... Compare that to the ages of the Egyptian civilization [around 5,000 years old], the Minoan civilization [around 5,000 - 5,300 years old... http://archaeology.about.com/od/mterms/qt/minoan.htm ], and so on... I think the civilizations of the Indian subcontinent are extremely old, too - far older than the bible...
Hope this helped... To me, it's always a waste of time to argue theology when the struts the theology stand upon are so patently false, i.e., the bible claims to be an absolute authority, yet it's a miserable "Johnny-come-lately" 'holy' book - there are religious texts upon the walls of the Egyptian pyramids that are around a thousand years older than the bible...
And, of course, Goddess[es] worship is at least 35,000 years old - at least TEN TIMES older than 'the bible'...
So, if the bible didn't come 'first' - a fact not well known amongst most "Christians" - it sure as hell isn't the REAL word of the "REAL" 'god'...
And again... Hope this info helped... Zid
donuthole

Aguest,
Thank you for the answers --
Maybe I should clarify what I meant when I asked if death was eternal. You said:
If you mean "eternal" as in never/cannot dies/die, no. Because death IS hurled into the Lake of Fire and destroyed, and thus becomes "no more," right? If, however, you mean "eternal" as in "immortal" (which some people do mean)... such as all spirit beings are... then, yes. "Immortal" means does not die... and spirits, including Death, do not die. They CAN, however, be destroyed, which only happens by fire. Water can contain them... but not destroy them. If you mean "eternal" as in had no beginning, per se... that is my understanding.
I meant eternal as in having no beginning or origin. If I read you correctly it seemed to imply that Sovereign God did not create Death/Darkness - that Death/Darkness, an actual spirit entity not an abstract idea, always existed like God himself. If I understood that correctly I was wondering in what way then Death was subservient to God - if they were co-eternal. I am also wondering if there is a way to reconcile this concept with what is written by Isaiah the prophet where the Word of God recorded as saying - "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Also as a follow-up to my earlier inquiry about animal kind verses mankind in his original state. If I am reading correctly you are saying that the garden was not necessarily an earthly place but part of the spirit realm. How is it then that animal kind being of flesh and red blood can exist within it?
Also in regard to what you said about Christ - would it be correct to say that on earth Jesus was in the image of Adam and not in the image of God?
As always thank you for your replies.
-Anthony
A.Fenderson

OK, I read the OP and skipped most everything else as I'm not that interested in the theological debate, but the OP got me to thinking somewhat and here's what came out:
(This is all from the JW-type view of things, BTW--I know most non-JW Christians on here don't agree with the WTS interpretation of, well, most anything.)
So, Adam and Steve (Eve is a mistranslation, yes, it IS Adam and Steve!) were in the garden for like, what, a full week before they F'ed it up for the entire human race? They were perfect, and yet made a horrible mistake like right off the bat.
Given the above, and the fact that there will be millions (?) of people around the instant paradise-earth is reestablished, what's to make one believe that some other "perfect" human wouldn't F it up big-time, yet again, within say--five minutes?
If your answer is "Well, Satan won't be there, so it'll be all good," then you're admitting that it wasn't really Adam or Steve's fault in the first place, it was Satan's--I mean, they didn't know God from Adam (well, you know what I mean), they never saw God, but here's this talking snake they can see telling them the fruit's all good--if this was the first lie ever, and they didn't have the knowledge of good and bad, they didn't know what a lie was, and free will is a cop-out.
It'd be like taking a 5-year old, having their mom tell them not to each the chocolate ice cream that is sitting in a bowl in front of them because it's poison, then having their father come in and tell them to go ahead and eat it because it tastes good and it won't hurt them--and then condemning all of mankind from that point forward when the kid goes for the chocolate.
ana_dote

may you all have unabashed neopolitan amounts of peace with cherries on top
lol thank you everyone for your discussion and thoughts! I guess I sure picked an interesting subject :-P
and while I don't really have the mental energy to address everyone's comments individually, I do have a major issue with one thing that was said in particular by AGuest (and no offense is meant by this).
AGuest said: "Ummm... first, it's not His book, dear one, truly. If it were HIS book... it wouldn't be used to justify all of the heinous things done because of it. Or cause the "dividing of the Christ" that it has. That one book has cause FAR more crimes against humanity... and much more division among mankind... particularly among those who call themselves "christians"... than virtually any other book ever written, compiled, and/or published."
You CANNOT say the Bible is NOT "God's" book and then use it to argue FOR God. It is a complete contradiction and weakens the foundation for anything you say. The Bible IS the Christian source. And I guarantee you that the Bible would not apply Ecclesiastes 12:12 (to the making of many books there is no end...) to ITSELF. It would be discrediting itself, yet it claims to be an accurate book FROM God. No book that was claiming to be a credible book would group ITSELF with books that it claims are a waste of time.
Just so you know, your "explanation" of the whole....adam/flesh/spirit/nakedness thing....kinda hokey. You might as well be trying to tell us the trinity doctrine is real.
And also...I'm guessing that your source for the "name of Death" is the "Lord"? Again, no offense, but using your own personal "revelations" as your main source of dispensing what you perceive to be truth is not going to convince anyone that what you say IS truth. Unfortunately, it is that precise claim and reasoning that leads to the creation of dangerous cults. I just broke away from one of them. I don't need to get sucked into another. So while I DO appreciate you sharing your thoughts....perhaps you should present them more as your opinion and not as "truth", as there is no way possible to PROVE your statements. It is the same as the JW's or any other religion who uses the Bible to prove the Bible is accurate. You need more than the source in question to prove the credibility of the source.
ziddina - I actually have briefly pondered the concept of the christian god not being the REAL god...mentally lighting upon tidbits of Egyptian history, though I certainly have done very little, if any, real research. I will have to check out the links you provided when I'm more awake, though ;-)
i hope everyone has fluffy angel dreams with cheery pan flute music on repeat in their brains....

random thought/pondering

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