Moral apologists for the creator will explain away evil by submitting that the potential for evil is a necessary consequence of free will. Wrong! (page 2)

PSacramento

If I'm God, and I'm the one who can create the rules, I can do whatever I want, right?

There is the crux of the matter, IF God created RULES, there must be a reason for them.

It's nice to imagine a world a certain way, without haveing to thing what needs to be different for it to be that way and what is lost for the world to be that way, but that doesn't mean it would work.

There is no good without evil, since one pretty much defines the other.

To have a world where cause and effect are not inter realted or where an isolated act doesn't effect anything else woudl mean being in a world with no relationships, so much for free will then.

If you are not free to do what you choose because you have no choice, then you are not free nor do you have free will.

We all would like to picture a world the way WE want it to be, but what about one the way THAT person wants it to be? what about HIm or Her?

sir82

There is the crux of the matter, IF God created RULES, there must be a reason for them.

Why? Who determined "the reason"?

If you are not free to do what you choose because you have no choice, then you are not free nor do you have free will.

Non sequitor. The opening post proposes free will - but one without harmful effects.

I proposed a world where free will can include "evil" - but one in which consequences fall upon the perpetrator only.

The issue is - why does "poor choice" of "free will" necessarily result in bad consequences?

We all would like to picture a world the way WE want it to be, but what about one the way THAT person wants it to be? what about HIm or Her?

What about when I'm God, before even time exists, and I am completely alone, nothing exists except for me. Why not design a better world from the start?

If God creates conscious, moral beings, he has a responsibility toward them. They did not "ask to be born". A creator is reponsible for his creation.

If he intentionally places them in a universe where a single bad choice can affect billions of yet-unborn beings for eons of time, he and he alone bears the responsibility.

Once again, why not design a better world from the start?

gubberningbody

Sir, I think what we've seen here so far is various attempts at excusing the creator, if it even exists as a personality of any kind.

THE GLADIATOR

sir82: Once again, why not design a better world from the start?

Design needs a designer, who in turn was designed by a designer and so on. Another explanation is called for.

Our world came out of the universe and we came out of our world. The universe was not designed or put there nor was our earth. The universe is the result of cause and effect billions of times over billions of years. Its beginning and end cannot be known and there may be no beginning or end.

The universe is what it is. It is possible that what we call the universe is one of many universes. From out minuscule ant like perspective we are incapable of full grasping the process at work that we are a part of.

It is enough to be conscious of the fact that we are a part of something wonderful, if only for a few yeras.

PSacramento

No one is excusing the creator, we are exchanging view points, nothing more, nothing less.

You make a valid point sir82, why NOT make the perfect world from the very beginning of creation?

I mean, if WE can invison it, why couldn't God ? right?

sir82

You make a valid point sir82, why NOT make the perfect world from the very beginning of creation?

I mean, if WE can invison it, why couldn't God ? right?

Right!

If this is "the best of all possible worlds", why is it so easy for we small imperfect humans to envision a world in which no one suffers unnecessarily?

If God is truly omnipotent, why did he choose to make a world in which it is possible for a baby to be born in Africa, suffer constant excruciating pain from malnutrition for a few years, and then die? And then have that identical scenario play out literally hundreds of millions of times over and over and over again for thousands and thousands and thousands of years?

Why not make a world where, if I make "the wrong choice" with my free will, I and I alone suffer?

And if there were some reason for creating the world the way it is, wouldn't an explanation of why be somewhere near the top of the list of things that God would choose to reveal to his creations? I mean, I don't care how many temple singers were assigned to sing each month, nor the number of socket pedestals needed to build a tabernacle....

PSacramento

If this is "the best of all possible worlds", why is it so easy for we small imperfect humans to envision a world in which no one suffers unnecessarily?

Indeed, I mean, if WE can do it (envision it), does that makes us superiour to a "creator" ?

sir82

Indeed, I mean, if WE can do it (envision it), does that makes us superiour to a "creator" ?

Perhaps, although I concede there may be reasons I am unaware of that the world "must be" the way it is.

But in that case, wouldn't an almighty loving God recognize his responsibility to his suffering creation and provide some sort of explanation, rather than remain silent and allow it to be debated endlessly on discussion boards?

PSacramento

Hey, maybe God works through the internet !!!

tec

I could attempt to design a way to make the world better. But I cannot envision the consequences to all of my design even in the present; much less a thousand/ten thousand years from now. Even experts on child rearing flip/flop many of their views after they see the effects a generation later. At best, I think we can see a few steps in advance by using reason, cause and effect... but we cannot see the benefits and consequences for everyone and certainly not for eternity.

If we're assuming God (an eternal and intelligent designer) exists for the nature of this discussion, then He has vast amounts of knowledge and wisdom to draw upon - about everything in the universe (including the hearts and needs of ALL men, women and children.)

If our free will was limited, how free is that will, really?

Tammy

Moral apologists for the creator will explain away evil by submitting that the potential for evil is a necessary consequence of free will. Wrong!

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