Prove bible teaches Resurrection right after the 'initial' armageddon.

by EndofMysteries 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  CandleLight

  Shelby,

  I enjoyed your thoughts on the order of events.

  Just a bit of clarification for me on what you are saying? :-) The 1000 years where there is a seperating of the sheep and goats. I assume that the sheep are brought into the city, while goats are left outside.

  I guess I wonder when looking at it, what the state of the sheep are, until they are brought into the city? Do they exist alive until changed? And what of the goats. Do they continue to live until armageddon?

  Just looking at your persective.

  With his love and Peace

  LeAnn
• 

  AGuest

  Just a bit of clarification for me on what you are saying? :-)

  Of course, dear LeAnn... and the greatest of love and peace to you!

  The 1000 years where there is a seperating of the sheep and goats. I assume that the sheep are brought into the city, while goats are left outside.

  Yes!

  I guess I wonder when looking at it, what the state of the sheep are, until they are brought into the city? Do they exist alive until changed?

  Yes! They are changed immediately, however:

  “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably;naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’" Matthew 25:31-33

  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

  "And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4, 5

  "However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his arrival.Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

  And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Matthew 24:29-31

  And what of the goats. Do they continue to live until armageddon?

  Yes!

  “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink.I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”Matthew 25:41-46

  "I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Revelation 21:3

  "Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9

  Gog (the goats), who were not initially destroyed but were cut OFF (from entry into the kingdom)... and Magog... try to get IN to the "City" that they've been cut-OFF from... so as to eat from the Tree of Life (Christ) and live... forever.

  "With that JaHVeH put him out of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken.And so he drove the manout and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:23, 24

  "JaHVeH made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden..."Genesis 2:9

  "I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator.Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit.Y OU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU . Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU . Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU , unless YOU remain in union with me.I am the vine, YOU are the branches. John 15:1-5

  Just looking at your persective.

  Yes, of course!

  With his love and Peace

  Always... and the same to you!

  YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  CandleLight

  Shelby, Thank you sis for clarifying your thoughts! You had stated. "3. Christ and his co-rulers sit down on thrones and "separate" the sheep from the goats... a process which takes "1,000" years..." It seems to me you are saying that it will take 1000 years to seperate the ones who are on earth at the time of christ return? Since the ressurection of the dead does not occur until later. However I thought those 'sheep' were immediately talken into the city? I guess I am wondering what takes 1000 years? Am I missing something you said? "4. Once that task has concluded, Satan is loosed and goes out to mislead Gog (the goats who are "cut off" from entry)... and Magog (the spirits that have been reserved for destruction)... into thinking they can actually again entry to the "Holy City" (made up of people)... wherein is the Tree of Life (Christ)... so as to eat and live forever..." yes. They surround the 'camp'. "5. Which misleading he does by means of three "unclean inspired expressions that look like frogs"... (which causes the wild beast and false prophet to be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna))..." This is the same wild beast that at the harlot, and killed the saints? So What I see here is that the beast, false prophet and gog/magog and goats, exits until the end of the 1000 years, satan is loosed and the holy city is attacked and fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them. At that point, satan, false prophet and wild beast are cast into the lake of fire. Those who have the mark of the beast also. Death and hades are emptied, and the dead judged. Then death and hades are also cast into gehenna? Just seeing if I get what you are saying sis :-) Love and peace to you LeAnn Ps. And the order leading up to where you started at christ return? I am curious as to where you place the destruction of the whore.
• 

  PSacramento

  PS, are you OK with the prophetic dreams and visions in the rest of the bible?

  How about those in the book of Daniel for instance?

  Are you OK with the other things that Jesus has to say and reveal in scripture?

  Revelation might be a tricky book in some ways but so are many other things in the bible.

  The false prophecies of the WT and their ilk are certainly not limited to the book of Revelation.

  Blessings,

  Stephen

  Prophecies are not things writtne in stone, they are warnings of things that can happen, indeed will happen IF people don't change.

  To take them as "gospel" is incorrect.

  If John didn't think that people couldn't advert his "vision" of the possible event of things, why write them down?
• 

  heathen

  aguest- nobody can say for sure what the new heavens and earth will be like but we do know the earth was a bit different before man arrived and possibly will return to that same design , if worked the first time then why not? The earth had it's orbit changed due to the flood of noahs day which allowed for seasons, according to some .TRue you won't find that in a science book . I would like to again include daniel 12 where Michael stands up and the dead are resurrected . I do believe in 2 resurrections .
• 

  Chalam

  Hello PS,

  There are a few occasions in the OT where the Lord says "if my people" and thus the word given is conditional 2 Chronicles 7:14 , Psalm 81:13

  However, everything else is cast in stone and cannot change.

  Numbers 23:19 (New International Version)

  19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
  nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
  Does he speak and then not act?
  Does he promise and not fulfill?

  Hebrews 6:18 (New International Version)

  18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

  Titus 1:2 (New International Version)

  2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

  The point I am making about the book of Revelation is that the revelation comes from Jesus, and the words spoken in the book are His. I am sure you are happy with His words and revelations elsewhere so why not here?

  Also, the things spoken about in Revelation are spoken of throughout the bible so why receive them elsewhere and not in this book?

  Lastly, the visions "in the Spirit" are common throughout the bible, see Ezekiel and Daniel for example.

  Indeed, Joel says the gift is for all Christians

  Acts 2:17-18 (New International Version)

  17 " 'In the last days, God says,
  I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
  Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
  your young men will see visions,
  your old men will dream dreams.
  18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
  I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
  and they will prophesy.

  As Peter concurs

  Acts 2:38-39 (New International Version)

  38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

  As does Paul 1 Corinthians 12 , 1 Corinthians 14

  Hope that helps?

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  PSacramento

  Stephen,

  I understand what you are saying, but to view any APOCOLYPTIC prohecy as set in stone, that I don't get and here is why?

  Why prohecize what can't be changed ?

  Free will becomes irrelevant as does learning to even attempting to chnage things for the better for all.

  To look at Revelation and see that, even after 1000 years under Christ constant precense, people will still be lead astray, not MIGHT be, but WILL BE and then to view it as a FACT that this will happen and that nothing can be done the change that these people, WILLl be lead astray and eventually destroyed, well...what hopes does that inspire at all? what confidence can we have in Jesus's message if it is ineveitable that so many will be destroyed anyways?
• 

  AGuest

  Shelby, Thank you sis for clarifying your thoughts!

  You are quite welcome, dear LeAnn (and the greatest of love and peace to you!)

  You had stated. "3. Christ and his co-rulers sit down on thrones and "separate" the sheep from the goats... a process which takes "1,000" years..." It seems to me you are saying that it will take 1000 years to seperate the ones who are on earth at the time of christ return?

  Yes. Not those who "belong" to him... but those who do not...

  Since the ressurection of the dead does not occur until later.

  The second resurrection, yes. The first resurrection occurs just before Christ, and those who belong to him who are resurrected... along with those who belong to him who have NOT died and so are simply "changed")... "sit down" on their thrones...

  However I thought those 'sheep' were immediately talken into the city?

  If you're talking about Christ's sheep (those who belong to him)... yes. If you're talking about the sheep who are "separated" from the goats (and who Christ and his brothers rule OVER)... yes, too, but AS they are separated. Not all of the sheep are his, dear one. That's why he said, "MY sheep know my voice" and why the Most Holy One of Israel prophesied through His servant Ezekiel:

  “'Therefore, YOU shepherds, hear the word of JaHVeH, ‘“As I am alive,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH, “surely for the reason that my sheep became something for plunder and my sheep continued to be food for every wild beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, and my shepherds did not search for my sheep, but the shepherds kept feeding themselves, and my own sheep they did not feed,”’ therefore, YOU shepherds, hear the word of JaHVeH. This is what the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH has said, ‘Here I am against the shepherds, and I shall certainly ask back my sheep from their hand and make them cease from feeding my sheep, and the shepherds will no longer feed themselves; and I will deliver my sheep out of their mouth, and they will not become food for them.’”

  “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH has said: “Here I am, I myself, and I will search for my sheep and care for them. According to the care of one feeding his drove in the day of his coming to be in the midst of his sheep that have been spread abroad, that is the way that I shall care for my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all the places to which they have been scattered in the day of clouds and thick gloom. And I will bring them out from the peoples and collect them together from the lands and bring them in onto their soil and feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streambeds and by all the dwelling places of the land. In a good pasturage I shall feed them, and on Israel’s high mountains their abiding place will come to be. There they will lie down in a good abiding place, and on a fat pasturage they will feed upon the mountains of Israel.”

  “‘“I myself shall feed my sheep, and I myself shall make them lie down,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH. “The lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall annihilate. I shall feed that one with judgment.”

  “‘And as for YOU my sheep, this is what the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH has said: “Here I am judging between a sheep and a sheep, between the rams and the he-goats. Is it such a little thing for YOU men that on the very best pasturage YOU feed but the rest of YOUR pasturages YOU should trample down with YOUR feet, and that the clear waters YOU drink but the ones left over YOU should foul by stamping with YOUR very feet? And as for my sheep, on the pasture ground trampled by YOUR feet should they feed and the water befouled by the stamping of YOUR feet should they drink?”

  “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord JaHVeH has said to them: “Here I am, I myself, and I shall certainly judge between a plump sheep and a lean sheep, for the reason that with flank and with shoulder YOU kept pushing and with YOUR horns YOU kept shoving all the sickened ones until YOU had scattered them to the outside. And I will save my sheep, and they will no longer become something for plunder; and I will judge between a sheep and a sheep. And I will raise up over them one shepherd, and he must feed them, even my servant David. He himself will feed them, and he himself will become their shepherd. And I myself, JaHVeH, will become their God, and my servant David a chieftain in the midst of them. I myself, JaHVeH, have spoken." Ezekiel 34:7-24

  I guess I am wondering what takes 1000 years? Am I missing something you said?

  I'm not sure. The "separating" IS the "judging" of Christ and his brothers. As kings, they have POWER of judging but, like Christ, "Melchizedek"... as priests they DON'T judge but, rather, offer up supplications on behalf of the people. Here, individuals who do not belong to Christ are "separated" based on how they treated Christ's brothers ("these", as our Lord indicated), who are NOT of the group being separated. Otherwise, he would have said, "To the extent you did it to the least of my brothers among you." However, he addressed one group - the "sheep" - by referring to their conduct as to another group - HIS "sheep" ("my brothers"). Earthly kings like to judge. Indeed, earthling man LOVES to "sit in judgment" over his fellow man. Our Lord is not like that, however. Although power of judging is GIVEN him... he defers that right and privilege back to the Father. Since HIS sheep are "like" him... attain to HIS "image"... they, too, although given power of judging do NOT judge ("Stop judging, that you may not BE judged"). Rather, they FORGIVE and RELEASE... just as they observed the Master doing... just as HE observed the FATHER doing. That is why they are kings... AND priests.

  This is the same wild beast that at the harlot, and killed the saints?

  Yes!

  So What I see here is that the beast, false prophet and gog/magog and goats, exits until the end of the 1000 years, satan is loosed and the holy city is attacked and fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them. At that point, satan, false prophet and wild beast are cast into the lake of fire. Those who have the mark of the beast also. Death and hades are emptied, and the dead judged. Then death and hades are also cast into gehenna?

  Yes. As to the first part: "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names.Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority." Revelation 13:1, 2 "And I saw three unclean inspired expressions like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14

  "Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war." Revelation 20:7, 8

  As for the rest, yes, if you're placing our Lord handing the kingdom back over to the Father and the Father sitting down to judge (Judgment Day) between the casting of the Satan et al. into the Lake of Fire... and then Death and Hades and the sea giving up those dead in them (the SECOND resurrection)... in order for those to be judged...

  Just seeing if I get what you are saying sis

  Of course! And please don't hesitate to let me know if I've misstated or have been unclear about something

  :-) Love and peace to you LeAnn

  To you, as well! YOUR servant, sister and fellow slave of Christ, SA
• 

  Chalam

  PSacramento Why prohecize what can't be changed?

  There are many reasons. Firstly, to prove the bible is true and God's word is true. Also to let God's people know His plans and purposes.

  Free will becomes irrelevant as does learning to even attempting to chnage things for the better for all.

  Free will is still relevant. It is up to people to choose if they want the goodness of God that He promises or they prefer the lies of the enemy.

  To look at Revelation and see that, even after 1000 years under Christ constant precense, people will still be lead astray, not MIGHT be, but WILL BE and then to view it as a FACT that this will happen and that nothing can be done the change that these people, WILLl be lead astray and eventually destroyed, well...what hopes does that inspire at all? what confidence can we have in Jesus's message if it is ineveitable that so many will be destroyed anyways?

  Some who grow up in the 1000 years (having natural bodies Isaiah 65:20) choose rebellion in the end, even after 1000 years of living without any evil in the world.

  The saints who have been resurrected in their resurrection bodies cannot be led astray 1 Corinthians 15:42

  I do not believe in annihilationism i.e. the finite or one time destruction of the unsaved, it is just another heresy from the WT and some similar groups.

  I do believe in the eternal destruction as taught in the scriptures. Here's a few

  Luke 16:23 (New International Version)

  23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

  Luke 16:28 (New International Version)

  28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

  Mark 9:47-48 (New International Version)

  47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
  " 'their worm does not die,
  and the fire is not quenched.'

  Jude 1:7 (New International Version)

  7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

  2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (New International Version)

  6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

  Revelation 14:9-11 (New International Version)

  9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

  Revelation 20:10-15 (New International Version)

  10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  The Dead Are Judged

  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  Blessings,

  Stephen