What was that sound?
Oh, I'm sorry- he/she's Fading...
Getting into Arguments with JW's...
by ForbiddenFruit 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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theMadJW
um ok, look. The truth of the matter is that you won't repel a JW by arguing with them. That's like spraying spanish fly all over yourself and lying on the bed. Arguing and ridiculous questions only make JW's do research and share more scriptures and articles with you. Woops. (Did I ruin the party?)
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mindmelda
I never argue with JWs. I don't ask them "ridiculous" questions, not in my opinion.
If they think the questions are ridiculous, maybe it's because that excuses them from answering.
Actually, Witnesses quit calling on me when I didn't parrot answers back to them from the Watchtower articles. I was told that unless I answered from the paragraph and didn't ask "irrelevent" questions, I wouldn't be studied with anymore. I was told that studying the Bible alone was inappropriate and "not the way the society studies the Bible with people" and it wouldn't be done that way. That's what I asked for, but was rejected so I agreed to study the Watchtower lesson with someone every week.
I never challenged any JW beliefs straight out, I just gave my own thoughts and read scriptures not in the paragraph, but that I felt were related and answered as best as I could.
The elder's wife who studied with me (I had been inactive for years, this was supposed to "encourage me back to activity") would get very upset with me...once to the point where she left in tears of anger and frustration. Finally, she told me she wasn't going to continue, I was told, "you're wasting my time".
Aside from her, two pioneers studied with me too...they all gave up and discontinued the study. I never once raised my voice, argued or insulted them.
I guess Witnesses DO give up. They did with me...three times. Well...four if you count my parents who have stopped Witnessing to me too. I'm not DF, or DA...I haven't identified as a Witness in about 8 years anyway.
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theMadJW
That's because we weren't commanded to make disciples of...parrots!
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Cold Steel
The weak link of the JW is its legitimacy as the one true church.
No one in the church has ever had any indication from God that it is HIS church. Has anyone from Charles T. Russle on down ever had a revelation? Did they see God, or an angel? Where did they receive their ordinations from? Who ordained any overseer, and who ordained them, and who ordained the one before and so forth? At some point the ordinations stop and people began appointing themselves.
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen YOU and ordained YOU," the Lord said to his apostles.
The JW is a manmade church, just like the others they rail against. Its leaders are self-appointed, or how did God come to proclaim himself through a publishing company?
Most Christians believe that man has a spirit, and while it's true that the word "spirit" can be translated "breath," guess what? It also can be translated "spirit"! The Witnesses and the SDA both rely on ONE VERSE in Ecclesiastes, a book that was not even written by a prophet, for their belief that the soul "sleeps" at death. Ecclesiastes was not an eschatological book, but a philosophical book. Peter says that while Jesus was put to death in the flesh, that he was made alive in the spirit, by which he preached to the spirits in prison, which were disobedient in the days of Noah. If Jesus has a spirit, shouldn't we? And who were the spirits to whom he preached?
The Witnesses say they were the fallen angels, but even if their interpretation is correct that angels became flesh and had sexual intercourse with humans (a bizarre and apostate view), why would he preach to them? "I'm here to tell you guys you shouldn't have done that!"
He did this for three days???
That must have been some preaching!
Actually, the "sons of God" were God's people. And the "daughters of men" were those who worshipped idols. There were no angels. It's an old Hebrew myth like Adam's first wife. Pure fiction. Spirits don't have the power to assume flesh. If so, why did Jesus ask his disciples to feel his wounds and examine him? "For a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have," he said. If spirits could manufacture flesh and bone bodies, what would have been the logic in Jesus' statement?
Look, I'm not in the business of ripping people from their faith, but people need to be a little more discerning. Christianity can be perfectly true and the JW church false. I personally believe that the church of Jesus Christ should be established by God and that it should be just like his church was anciently. I would never seek to destroy someone's faith, but if they asked why I couldn't buy into it, I'd tell them and ask them to respect my view unless they could tell me how God established a church without telling anyone.
That's what really gets me.
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moshe
-Finally, she told me she wasn't going to continue, I was told, "you're wasting my time".
MindMelda, I appreciated you comment. JW's really hate real questions that they have no scripted answer for. It's been a long time since a JW even tried to make a point with me.
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garyneal
If it DOES, do some real research into it. For example, this clown's accusation above. Since they need excuses to justify their lack of faith, the scripture mean little to them;
Jehovah said Jerusalem would be desolate 70 years.
Babylon fell in 539 BC, the jews were released 2 years later.
MadJW
Please show me the scripture that says that Jerusalem will be desolate for 70 years.
Please also show me the scripture that says that the jews were released 2 years later.
The later one is of greater importance to me since I was under the impression that the WT professes that Babylon fell in 539 and it took the jews 2 years to return to their desolated land.
Shall we get scholar in on this one?
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theMadJW
"MindMelda, I appreciated you comment. JW's really hate real questions that they have no scripted answer for. It's been a long time since a JW even tried to make a point with me."
Obviously then, you're still not paying any attention. WOOSH!!! (sound of the ball whizzing over your head) Hello! Hi, nice to meet you. Ding Dong. You guys really make it too easy to have fun at this. Thanks so much for all the laughs and ------ er - times.
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garyneal
What, no answer? Did you at least kiss the monkey on the other thread?
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theMadJW
"Most Christians believe that man has a spirit, and while it's true that the word "spirit" can be translated "breath," guess what? It also can be translated "spirit"! "
“Soul”—ALivingCreature,HumanorAnimal;LifeasanIntelligentPerson;OtherUses Heb.,???(ne′phesh);Gr.,ψυχ?(psy·khe′);Lat.,
a′ni·ma
In the Hebrew Scriptures the Hebrew word ne′phesh occurs 754 times, first in Ge 1:20. The NewWorldTranslation consistently renders it “soul” and in each case it proves understandable in the light of its context. The use of this one Hebrew word in many different contexts helps us to ascertain the basic idea inherent in the word as the Bible writers used it, namely, that it is a person, an individual, or a lower creature; or, the life that a person or an animal enjoys as such. This is totally different from what the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans religiously and philosophically called a soul.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures the Greek word psy·khe′ occurs by itself 102 times, first in Mt 2:20. This includes Eph 6:6 and Col 3:23, where it is in the expression “whole-souled.” Additionally it is used in many compound Greek words such as in Php 2:2, 19; 1Th 5:14. The NewWorldTranslation consistently renders psy·khe′ as “soul.” This uniform rendering by the same English word proves very enlightening as to how the inspired writers used psy·khe′ and what properties they ascribed to it.
"The Witnesses and the SDA both rely on ONE VERSE in Ecclesiastes, a book that was not even written by a prophet, for their belief that the soul "sleeps" at death. Ecclesiastes was not an eschatological book, but a philosophical book."
You're right. It has very little to do with eschatology. The book of Ecclesiastes was written for a lofty purpose. Solomon, as leader of a people dedicated to Jehovah, had the responsibility to hold them together in faithfulness to their dedication. He sought to fulfill this responsibility by means of the wise counsel of Ecclesiastes.
"Peter says that while Jesus was put to death in the flesh, that he was made alive in the spirit, by which he preached to the spirits in prison, which were disobedient in the days of Noah. If Jesus has a spirit, shouldn't we? And who were the spirits to whom he preached?"
Several different questions here.
1. Angels are sometimes termed spirits; that which is spirit is invisible and powerful. Thus we read: “A spirit came out and stood before Jehovah”; “Are they not all spirits for public service?” (1Ki 22:21; Heb 1:14) Having invisible spiritual bodies, they make their abode “in the heavens.” (Mr 12:25; 1Co 15:44, 50) They are also termed “sons of the true God,” “morning stars,” and “holy myriads” (or “holy ones”).—Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; De 33:2.
2. The demons as such were not created by God. The first to make himself one was Satan the Devil, who became the ruler of other angelic sons of God who also made themselves demons. (Mt 12:24, 26) In Noah’s day disobedient angels materialized, married women, fathered a hybrid generation known as Nephilim, and then dematerialized when the Flood came. (Ge 6:1-4) However, upon returning to the spirit realm, they did not regain their lofty original position, for Jude 6 says: “The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (1Pe 3:19, 20) So it is in this condition of dense spiritual darkness that they must now confine their operations. (2Pe 2:4) Though evidently restrained from materializing, they still have great power and influence over the minds and lives of men, even having the ability to enter into and possess humans and animals, and the facts show that they also use inanimate things such as houses, fetishes, and charms.—Mt 12:43-45; Lu 8:27-33;
3. (2 Peter2:4) Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;
4. Jesus' spirit which he entrusted into his father's hand was thus:
In view of the impersonal nature of the life-force, or spirit, found in man (as also in the animal creation), it is evident that David’s statement at Psalm 31:5, quoted by Jesus at the time of his death (Lu 23:46), “Into your hand I entrust my spirit,” meant that God was being called upon to guard, or care for, that one’s life-force. (Compare Ac 7:59.) That there be an actual and literal transmission of some force from this planet to the heavenly presence of God is not necessarily required. Even as the fragrant scent of animal sacrifices was spoken of as being ‘smelled’ by God (Ge 8:20, 21), whereas such scent undoubtedly remained within earth’s atmosphere, so, too, God could ‘gather in,’ or could accept as entrusted to him, the spirit or life-force in a figurative sense, that is, without any literal transmission of vital force from earth. (Job 34:14; Lu 23:46) A person’s entrusting his spirit evidently means, then, that he places his hope in God for a future restoration of such life-force to himself through a resurrection.—Compare Nu 16:22; 27:16; Job 12:10; Ps 104:29, 30.
Class dismissed!