"A rapist doesn't deserve love. On what basis would he?"
Hate the sin, love the sinner
LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong
by Terry 127 Replies latest watchtower bible
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agonus
and hand-in-hand with that, JUDGE the sin, not the sinner
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VoidEater
From the subject I knew it was Terry... ;-)
Without commenting on the philosophy, I thought an interesting corollary was:
The most basic teaching of Objectivisim has implications if followed:
Since the ultimate good is imbued in the individual ego, the culmination of Objectivism is the elimination of all nations and states.
Now I wonder if that's what the neocons embracing Randism really have in mind...
PS - As stated on another thread, I would leave it to the raped to forgive their rapists. An interesting discussion might be What is forgiveness.
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LongHairGal
Terry,
I don't even think Jesus meant what everybody thinks he meant. When he said love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you, I don't think he meant somebody coming into your home to slaughter you. I think he meant it from the standpoint of an 'enemy' or 'persecutor' as being somebody who wasn't really a criminal but just hated you for your beliefs. His kind advice was meant to turn that person's feelings around.
Sorry, I am just not buying extreme pacifism. I never did and I never will. Some people may think 'aah, now nice' but if taken to extreme this is just an act of self-destruction. Is this what Jesus meant? I doubt it.
I believe his words are misconstrued and taken by people today as thinking you should forgive people for ANYTHING. Even the idiot JW religion came out with articles sometime back in the late 80s or early 90s to clarify that forgiveness just meant not nurturing 'hate' because it is destructive to you. And it DIDN'T say that the sinner would necessarily be welcome back as your friend. (Yeah, somebody who murders and rapes somebody's child should be invited back to that person's house --- um I don't think so). This is why so many JWs (and even people in the 'world') are just plain screwed up and imagine they can be forgiven for just about anything.
People can disagree with me all they want.
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Terry
Hate the sin, love the sinner
The SINNER is the one that commits the sin.
Have you thought through the implications of your suggestion?
Hate the rape, love the rapist, for example.
Hate the child murder, love the child muderer.
Hate being smashed against the sidewalk, love jumping off the Empire State building.
I think you can see how ridiculous this is!
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StoneWall
What about the principle of practicing what you preach?
Why is it said to us to continue to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek, yet when the big Armageddon
hits (if it's real) then doesn't that show that both Jesus and Jah didn't continue to love their enemies?
Matthew 5:44 "However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU" [NWT]
What sense are we to take the word continue to mean? Perpetually? And if they (God and his son) can run out
of patience with their enemies then wouldn't it follow that we can too since we are 'evidently' created in their image?
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sir82
Jesus, at least Matthew's version of Jesus, preached a Father-God who takes an active, physical interest in his followers.
"Don't worry about what you are to eat or drink - God will give it to you". Etc.
If that were really the case, if there really were a protective God in the sky watching out for you who would protect you and wreak vengeance on all your enemies, then his advice to "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek", etc. makes sense. You could afford to do so, "God has your back".
Given that God has not provided any tangible physical benefits, protection, or justice for any of his followers for at least 2000 years, even if you are a Bible believer, the above-mentioned "spiritual counsel" is at best woefully impractical.
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agonus
"Hate the rape, love the rapist, for example.
Hate the child murder, love the child muderer."
Well, yes. How do we know that these people aren't the way they are BECAUSE they haven't experienced love, especially as children? Even the most heinous of human beings, I think, deserves a shot at redemption. I'm not suggesting we don't punish these people for their crimes, but are you about to suggest we abolish, say, prison ministries, on the basis that "these people don't deserve to be loved"?
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Terry
What about the principle of practicing what you preach?
Why is it said to us to continue to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek, yet when the big Armageddon
I wish I'd thought about that aspect! Good thinking!
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Terry
We must own what we do.
There are no causeless crimes. There are no innocent evils. We do or do not do according to our thoughts, ideas, compulsions or choices.
Otherwise, everything is excusable.
Hitler becomes a rather nice fellow who simply had wrong ideas and needed some love and therapy. The Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews were
patriots zealous for a purer race who were mistaken about their Anti-Semitism.
Japanese Kamakaze pilots who flew their Zero into a battleship to kill hundreds of men were martyrs for a religious zeal for the divine emperor.
Every evil deed is causelssunless we see the person behind the deed and hold them accountable.
Nothing comes from nothing.
WE are the world
.The evil in the world stems from what evil men do.
Here is the rub. Many do not want to hold certain people responsible for their actions. Instead, the crime and the criminal are separated out like
viewing a cake as merely flour, baking powder, eggs, sugar, etc.
Criminality and Evil are merely the "flavor" and not the cake.
We excuse the harm done______because____of poverty, racism, fetal alcohol syndrome, mental illness, abuse...the victimizer becomes
transformed into yet another Victim!
With only victims and no victimizers---WHO THEN BECOMES ACCOUNTABLE??
But, let's turn this back around and apply this argument to "good" people, shall we?
What do you think of this?
People who do good works do not expect society to separate them from their charity and rationalize away the merit of their deeds. They are
viewed as good people not people who do good because they are unable to help themselves.