LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong

by Terry 127 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    I'm pointing out the lunacy of this and you are missing it.

    If everything and everybody is MORALLY EQUIVALENT whether good or evil, kind or cruel then we live under a Deity who plays deuces wild because this Deity has no VALUE SYSTEM other than pure whim!

    Everything and everybody is MORALLY EQUIVALENT under God. Not with God. God is not subject to moral law. You want to be God or be like God.

    Where the problem becomes evident is when we are given JESUS as a SUPERIOR teacher of a morally better code of LOVE YOUR ENEMY.

    Yea that's your problem, for sure. You're still thinking like a JW (a moralist). I'm not a moralist.

    I believe Jesus is my God, not my teacher and He can do things I can't.

    I can not love my enemies, but, God can. You can see the difficulty (impossibillity )of loving your enemies. That's what God has to do to love you and me, he conforms me to the image of His Son.

    And you wonder why I'm having a hard time?

    No, I don't wonder. I understand, I humanly can't love my enemies either.

    If the Good suffer and the Bad are rewarded........and you call this GRACE (underserved kindness/unmerited favor) I call it: FLIP-FLOP LOGIC.

    The good suffer? Who are the good? there are no"Good" ( see Romans 3:9-12) Remember everybody is MORALLY EQUIVALENT under God. Not with God.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear designs...

    I'm not sure what exactly you are asking but...

    I think one could wax philisophical all day and wouldn't get anywhere...the Holy Spirit imbues a believer with a "spark". That doesn't mean that we are ignorant and just "have faith" I believe that any question that I had was answered and though I can't speak of the answer it is there as a "knowing"...I can't give you that answer or that knowing.

    1 Corinthians 2:6-7,11

    love michelle

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Hi, Michelle

    It's nice to read your posts. It's been a while.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Michelle, I find your comments answer or at least cleave to the real heart of this thread: no one can answer this question for some one else.

    Every day that I have been out from under the burden of religion I find how easily I am drawn into responses resemble the thing that I fled. I do not believe that formulating orthodoxy ( that is essentially what this style of debate does) provides any direction for being led by the spirit of God.

    The idea of a molester is the primary example for examining the dispute of Jesus' saying "love your enemies" in this discussion. Now, you gave the example of your own experience as one who wished to move beyond being a victim. I had a friend who was molested by her older brother from early childhood and on for years. But this does not provide a ground for expressing a rule of conduct either. You so aptly gave the words of 1 Cor. 2:6,7,11.

    Terry, I think that it is true that none of us can tell another what to do. But some of us do listen to what Jesus told us was a good way to go. We listen to him because he did do what you have so convincingly insist is unjust and wrong: he said to love your enemy.

    I believe that it is not for us to argue it on this or any other post. I believe more every minute that Jesus outrageous behavior is for individuals to deal with. I do not believe it is the place for any of us to diminish his words, however. The stinking church "Fathers" had no business undermining Jesus' teachings with their theology on what constitutes a 'Just War'.

    And Deputy dog, where do you get that Jesus isn't our teacher? He said he was at Matthew 23:8-10.

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    Years ago I saw a king snake consume a copperhead snake that matched it in length and width. How could this happen? I cannot tell you how. But I watched it happen. From the first to the last. Isn't this impossible? I would think so. But it did happen. Starting at the head, and it took something like an hour for the event to take place. They were at the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Eventually there was only one snake.

    It may be a completely off-the-wall idea, but what seems impossible may not be. What Jesus teaches was not meant to be a religion. It is meant to be a teaching. We can try to be as crazy as Jesus and follow him.But let's not make it mandatory, let's just affirm that Jesus did say it. He gave us peace.I hope for that peace.

    If some one has a "peace" to offer those who suffer torment and abuse to themselves and their loved ones, good. But we don't need a doctrine from either side do we? Can't we let individuals contend with Jesus' crazy love teaching in their own unorthodox way ?

    Maeve

  • sooner7nc
    sooner7nc

    "Almighty God couldn't simply step in and show Himself in our sinful world from the beginning" Why The F*** Not?

    If god loves his enemies so much, what prevented him from displaying his divine love (Killing the hell out of them) at the beginning?

    You say he has a plan. A plan for what? I think his plan is to show everyone that's ever lived or will live just how big of an ass he is.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Is living in a world of love better than living in a world of hate?

    If so, how should people behave toward one onother?

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    Absence of love doesn't imply presence of hate. There are many "Interpretations" to the words given by JesusĀ© therefore people can agree with what he meant. If we are to only listen to that Statement = Love your Enemies and not try to interpret it but just understand it "Have deepest caring feelings for the people who want to harm you and do you bad" - That is ridiculous and dangerous. Not only for ourselves but for society.

    An enemy is not necessarily someone who has done us wrong but someone who wants to do us wrong. Could we love someone who wants to do us wrong? Yes we can. Its a higher and deeper feeling.

    Lets say my son thinks that I want to hurt him so he decides to do me wrong. He became my enemy. Can I love him? yes because I know he has been misled. he perhaps made a stupid or irrational decision but I still am able to love him because he is my son and I know that people make mistakes.

    What if he hits me? Now he caused me harm he has become and active enemy. Could I still love him? Yes. Do I love his actions? Do I love his decisions? No. I hate his actions and I hate his decisions but I am able to love him still. I am able to Love my Enemy. Because I loved him before he became my enemy. However his actions have repercussions because he cause me harm and in order for him not to do it again he needs to be punished and retribution needs to be give to person harmed.

    Can we Love our Enemies? Yes we can. Should we love all our enemies? No. Can we love some of our enemies and still have justice and protect society? Yes but All the factors need to be considered.

    I would say instead RESPECT ALL YOUR ENEMIES. That is very important. They are our enemies and they have the potential of harm us. Therefore in order to avoid harm we should respect their potential and their power. If they actually harm us then JUSTICE must be procured either by LAWS or some other way in order to protect the society.

    Should we HATE our enemies? no we dont have to. We can respect them. We could hate their actions but sometimes our enemies are in the right to hate us or our actions..What if I am molester and people hate me because I like to molest people. They are my enemies. They want me to receive punishment and cause me harm, not for revenge but for Justice. I might hate them. But what if feel so bad for the harm I cause them. What if I realize that I made wrong and therefore I accept the punishment I receive? Can I love my enemies? YEs. Did you ever do wrong when you were little and then regret it and wanted to receive punishment for it? Did you ever feel love to the punisher for the sake of Justice?

    If we ALL as a society learn to do good to our RACE, ALL THE LIVING THINGS, AND THE WORLD then we start creating a loving environment. A respectful environment. A society were the enemy is selfishness and not the individuals. There are some countries where Jails are not locked. Because the individuals understood their wrong and accept the punishment. They are ENEMIES of society we could love them but not their actions. In such countries crime is less and punishment is minor compared to selfish countries. Any harm done to any individual is a harm done to all of us a society event to the person committing the crime.

    How about Love all the Living things, Hate the actions that cause harm. Hate the persons that want to cause harm to any living thing, willingly and knowingly of their actions without searching for a civilized system of Justice.

    LOVE YOUR ENEMIES is as logical as to say HATE YOUR FRIENDS.

    And by the way WE dont need God to come to this conclusions we just need to sit and think what is better for all of us. We act selfishly as human beings not because we have SIN(tm) inside our flesh but because we look for our interest first then the interests of our community then our species, then our planet (we look for our individual survival first naturally) But as we become more evolved then we can start to teach our young one that WE MUST look for the interest of our planet in connection with our own interest.

    Just thinking.

    PS, we cant even be sure that Jesus said those words. Its all hearsay documents with no less than 200 years after he existed. There are no originals by him or any eye witness. Only hearsay that makes for a good story and lots of books and for us to keep debating about it in these boards... dont you love religion? Thank God for his clarity :-)

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    nac (Maeve)

    And Deputy dog, where do you get that Jesus isn't our teacher? He said he was at Matthew 23:8-10.

    I'm sorry, I should have said: I believe Jesus is my God, not just a human teacher or example ( like what the WT teaches ) and He can do things I can't.

    I believe I will be conformed to His image, by faith, not by the moral law.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear cyberjesus...

    you said: "How about Love all the Living things, Hate the actions that cause harm"...

    wouldn't that be swell!...in the real world if a Christain say...loves a homosexual and hates the sin they are called homophobic and bigoted. We are, in some bizzare way, on the threshold of abusing their human rights. The Christain is not allowed to speak their opinion without being called names!...we can't love the sinner and hate the sin(in the eyes of some rabid activists)...the definition of "tolerance" has been changed to mean not simply tolerating a behaviour but actually "embracing" it or we are "intolerant"...

    this imo is because society has moved far away from moral absolutes...how many young ladies and gentlemen in hollywood would be jumping on the bysexual bandwagon if there was still some stigmatisim attached to that behaviour?...wouldn't they at least think twice if there was? instead plenty of them are experimenting and creating harm in their own basic sense of identity...like, I'm not x or y but x/y...no one can tell me that is healthy now or in the long run.

    love michelle

    p.s. Hi Deputy Dog...ya sweety!

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear sooner7nc...

    do you appreciate that a surgeon disinfects his hands, puts on gloves and sterilizes his instruments before operating? if you do then maybe you can comprehend why God Almighty couldn't enter into a world of sin but at a certain time His instrument(Jesus) could.

    love michelle

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