LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong

by Terry 127 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    A few posts back I gave the experience of watching a king snake consume a copperhead that was its own size.

    I mention this now because it helps me understand why scathing ridicule doesn't change my faith in the love of God. Just as I know what I saw at the bottom of that five gallon bucket (and it is ridiculous a story--two creatures becoming an arm in a sleeve) I had an experience of God's loving presence that was as graphic as that. It was as real as that. It happened ten years ahead of the Witnesses giving me a free home Bible study. In the end, knowing God was a live and gentle God who had shown me he exists brought me out of the WT.

    I am a reasonable person. I don't very often tell about the snakes in the bucket. Why would I want anyone to think I was silly?

    I am a reasonable person. I don't often tell what happened to me that made me know that a loving God lives.( It certainly was not a welcome story among the Witnesses, it didn't fit their theology of formalism.) I didn't find God in theology or a tent revival. It wasn't the sacraments or the Bible that was the agency. It was as direct as the blind man's healing at John 9. Just as that man knew nothing except that he was once blind and after Jesus smeared mud and spit onto his blindness he could see. That man was an object of ridicule for simply admitting that he once was blind and now he could see.

    In spite of encountering God in a wilderness, I sought organized religion after the experience because I like so many others believed that the "church" is in churches. I believed faith was in religion. And consequently, like so many others on this board I am left with a deep and abiding confusion about what to think after the experience of such spiritual abuse at the hands of the church at the hands of the"Anointed".

    After so many years I finally had to reclaim that simple, primitive experience of God and look at the incongruities of the evidence of God I have known and what I hear said about God by others who are smarter and better educated than I am.

    I am left only with the story of a snake in the bucket. Not two snakes, but one. I have to accept what I saw and, when pressed on the matter, admit that I did see it.

    When I wonder why religion is so poisonous, I think in part it must be because it tries to formulate God for others. Jesus never said "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you the only true God.." . No. He said "And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

    Obviously God can be buried by the scriptures as much as revealed by them. I am trying to sort that out--now.

    I am re-viewing the Bible, trying to rise above my own prejudices and the prejudice of others. Why would I post this? If God could reach me then he could reach anyone. But not through someone else's words, certainly not my own. Maeve

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I really think that unless someone has had a personal experience of God, itis very hard to "get there".

    I know that was the case with me.

    I don't think we an grasp God outside of a personal realtionship with God, I mean we can grasp at the "idea of God" and we can drop it of course, but I don't knwo of anyone that has ever dropped a realtionship with God.

    Not sure if I am being clear here...

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Dear PSacramento,

    So far I do get that from my experience and the Bible stories that having an experience with God that you recognize, leaves an unforgetable mark on your life. I have been trying to sort it out--because I can't deny it even though I haven't known just how to relate to God for years.

    There are Bible stories of individuals who "drop out"essentially squander a moment they have, but not always forever. And if they recover themselves it is not by suddenly being "good" but by recovering their relation to God. God seemed to tolerate flaws in his friend David but he wasn't close to David when David operated in a way that David himself recognized as abusive. It is interesting to me that God did not like the bloodiness of David's own modus operandi. (I know it is widely held that bloodiness is God's modus operandi as well but God's distaste for having a temple built by a man of blood does make one wonder)

    I know that words didn't teach me that God was truly a presence. Nothing I had ever heard prepared me to interact with God. The idea of fearing God was not even a functional part of my situation vis-a-vis God. I really can best relate to the idea of an ignorant old man wandering the wilds of Canaan, the blind man of John 9 or Legion in the graveyard than anything else.

    The strange thing is these unique moments are always examples of God befriending individuals who had no highly developed theology. I can see David thinking about God and his ways. And I see God accepting good faith efforts of uninformed people really desiring to know God--but none of them befriended him through religious formulas.

    Just thinking--"Love your enemies" is a way that someone does end up contending with God. It isn't a formula, is it? The postings on this thread show that. Also I'm thinking that that it isn't so strange to engage with God through Jesus. He made God available to the poor, the unlettered. I don't have a theology. I just have some good experiences and a lot of bad ones. So far nothing throws me clear of using the scriptures as a point of reference--I just don't reference them in the way that religion does. I'm trying to deprogram not just from the WT but from Orthodoxy.

    Maeve

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The whole point of Jesus was because itis SO HARD to relate to God.

    Jesus, being fully human, gives US ( not God) a way to relate to God ( God doesn't need a way to relate to us, he knows Us, individually).

    Christianity is unique in the aspect that God "came down to US", as opposed to US "doing something" to come up to God.

    In coming down to Us in Jesus, God made it clear that what he wants is a personal realtionship with each and every one of us, DIRECTLY and not necessarily via a religion or religious organization.

    It is a process that takes time and only happens when WE are ready because, while God is always ready, God has to wait for Us to be ready.

    Most of Us aren't, I knwo I wasn't for the longest of times and I truly beleive that IF I had been part of the WT, I probably would have never been ready and would be an atheist by now.

  • littlebird
    littlebird

    I think as Jw's we were conditioned to think of all subjects in "black & white". Even from the platform conscience matters were discussed as gray areas, but we all know what that really means, black, shouldn't do whatever it was or we would be considered spiritually weak.

    I no longer view things that way. In other words, I can except both that we can "love our enemies" and expect justice, as someone mentioned, Armagedon. Based on these two concepts alone, we can see that there is more than one personality trait to God, just as we have more than one trait. I believe if you look at the totality of his message you will see that he encourages us to "keep the peace" where we can, but there are limits.

    I can turn my other cheek, give somebody my coat, if it will keep the situation from escalating.

    We can certainly pray that a rapist will come to repentance and stop doing what they are doing, become reformed, but if they continue to do such things, I'm not opposed to the death penalty.

  • Terry
    Terry

    We can certainly pray that a rapist will come to repentance and stop doing what they are doing, become reformed, but if they continue to do such things, I'm not opposed to the death penalty.

    What worries me is that the forgiveness grants license to the rapist for at least one more time!

    Judges who let drunk drivers off again and again are murdering people by proxy when that inevitable crash comes.

    There is a victim out there who nobody thinks about until their bloody body is carried in by paramedics on a stretcher.

    Who did the deed? Was it only the perpetrator? Or was it every person who ever forgave them?

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Terry, I chained and eventually destroyed a dog that bit. I felt sad for the dog as she sort of had a screw loose from the time she was a puppy.We learned that she would bite. She bit a child in the face who had done no more than seek her out and try to pet her where we had chained her in advance of the visit. No one had a grudge against the dog. But she had become a danger too great to manage.

    I know a young woman who got into drugs and had a baby girl. She later met her "soulmate" when she was detoxing at a drug rehabilitation facility. They married and they had a little boy together. But there was something wrong between the father and step-daughter. He himself in shame confessed his inability to resist abusing the girl. It meant prison for him--which he embraced regardless of whatever forgiveness may have gone out to him. He had conscience enough to hate what he had done and could not stop doing.

    My point? What we call forgiveness does not include the liberty to continue to harm others.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    What we call forgiveness does not include the liberty to continue to harm others.

    Correct.

    Forgivness and justice must go hand-in-hand.

  • Terry
    Terry
    What we call forgiveness does not include the liberty to continue to harm others.

    Correct.

    Forgivness and justice must go hand-in-hand.

    At last, we all agree!

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    There's another recent Forgiveness thread. It might be nice to have these terms defined in the context of this discussion:

    - Forgiveness

    - Justice

    - Love

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