A discussion with the good Reverend....

by AK - Jeff 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I have had an 'interesting' exchange with him. I am about to end it, and may do so quite rudely.

    This man has written several books, all directed at 'helping' Jw's to leave the religion. Unfortunately the push given is from the frying pan to the fire IMO.

    I will not reveal his identity, as he has 'made the rounds' with Xjw's and I don't wish to slander him personally. I thought that our emails might be 'interesting', initiated by him [big surprise]. His first email to me was made not knowing that I had become agnostic. When I politely told him I was not a 'believer' any longer in his Christian God, he replied this way:

    Dear Jeff:

    Thank you for writing. I am sorry to heard what has happened since you left the Witnesses, but knowing how they operate and teach I can understand a little of the conclusion you have come to.

    The WT Society tries to get Witnesses to believe that the Watchtower Society and God are exactly the same, so when Witnesses realize that they have been deceived by the Watchtower Society, which they have, they also feel that they can not long trust God.

    The Watchtower Society and God have no similarity.

    In my experience, as a 14 years-old-boy I was carrying a heavy burden of sin. I was know as a "good boy" but of course had sinned and sin carries a burden. At this time I was told that I was an ungodly sinner before God and needed to repent. I know I had sinned, but fought the idea that I was such a bad sinner since I was much better than most of the kids around me. But then got me in the corner and began to show me my sins one by one and it ended up being a very high stack. So for the first time in my life I realize that I truly was and ungodly sinner.

    But fortunately at this time I went to a young peoples meetings. Once again I was told that I was a sinner, but this time I couldn't argue with God because He had convinced me of the fact. Then I was told that Jesus Christ left all of heavens glory, came into this world and lived a perfect life for 33 1/2 years and then died on that torture stake for sinner. As I heard this, I asked myself if I was really hearing what this man was saying. He said I was a sinner. This I acknowledge. But he said that Jesus came to die for sinner. Since I was a sinner and Jesus died for sinner then I had to qualifications for receiving the salvation that Jesus was offering. I bowed my head, repented of my sins and asked Jesus to be my personal Savior. When I opened my eyes the burden of sin I had been carrying all my life was completely gone. I came into a loving relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Now I am one of His eternal children and am 100% sure of going to heaven the very moment I leave this life.

    Before I was carrying a heavy burden, but in its place was give a peace and joy that only God can give.

    I am going to attach some material with the letter and would urge you to use the Bible and look up what is written. I know that if you ever come into this personal relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ that you will never be disappointed.

    If you have any particular issues that I can discuss with you I would be more than glad to do so. I just want to share this wonderful life that I have as a child of God with as many people as I possibly can.

    [Edited]

    Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

    Sincerely,

    In the edited portion, he asks me to read his latest book. He also included attachments that attack Jehovah's Witnesses from every angle, doctrinally. I then replied:

    Thank you Reverend.

    I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for most of my first 48 years. I spent the next 4 or 5 in serious study of the Bible, Christianity, and religion in general. Due to that – and all that I found wrong, especially with the Bible itself, and any attempt to make sense of God, or especially to find God worthy of love – I left it all. No religion. No Holy Writ. No God.

    I left it all behind me. The God of the Bible holds no interest for me these days. He has been hiding from mankind since mankind invented him. He fooled me for a long time. No more. He hides in the shadows, condones wrong, slaughters children and virgins [according to the Bible].

    I mean no disrespect to those who continue to accept the delusion of God. I just gave up fantasy in favor of reality, that’s all.

    Namaste to you and yours

    Jeff

    His reply to this was voluminous, to say the least. He went on and on. I include a few of the choicest tidbits, to spare you the entire read:

    Dear Jeff:

    I greatly appreciate your taking the time to tell me about you situation. In this way it helps me to understand what you have gone through and some of the conclusions you have come to.

    I don’t think you came to your conclusion about the Bible from just reading the Bible but you have read the comments and ideas that some HUMAN MEN have written.

    The purpose of the Bible is to import eternal life. Sad to say, there are many enemies of Biblical Christianity who are out there to tear it down, but there is too much proof for the person who will dare to really investigate that the Bible truly is the Word of God and has not been corrupted.,,,The Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit, and it give life to all those who are willing to confess that they re ungodly sinners before God, believe that the creator has a concern for His creation and wants them to spend eternity with Him, and thus was willing to suffer in parting with His eternal Son, allowing Him to come into this earth and bear shame and reproach, and in the end die on that cruel torture stake and shed His blood for the sins of all mankind, so that those who are willing to repent and humble themselves and ask Jesus to be their personal Savior, will have all their sins, past, present, and future, forgive, be adopted into the eternal family of God, can walk and fellowship with God on this earth, and then the very moment they leave this life they go eternally into the presence of the Father and Son and can worship and adore Him perfectly for ever.

    The fact that Jesus lived upon this earth and did miracles is a proven fact. The fact that Jesus died on that torture stake is a proven fact. The fact that Jesus rose bodily from the grave is a proven fact. 500 believers saw the risen Christ at one time. Jesus said in John 10:28: “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” I think that makes those us who are members of the family of God very secure!

    If you were to believe the Bible, there is very little of what the Watchtower Society has taught in the past, constantly changing, and present that you would find true. The Society has greatly perverted the Bible. You could never become a Jehovah’s Witnesses by just reading the Bible. The Society takes verses, part of a verse, or a word out of context to try and prove its teachings.

    In order for their to be a counterfeit there has to be an original. I admit that there are many “man made religions” that do not lead you to heaven. I admit that there of many “Holier-than-thou,” but as a missionary and telling Japanese how they could be saved from hell (all Buddhist have to go to hell for at least 33 years) and how they can go to heaven through the death of Jesus Christ, I saw some genuine children of God. They were completely changed so I know from my own experience that change can be made. My mother is another example. Until the age of 54 she had nothing to do with Christianity but then she came to know Christ as her personal Savior and was a completely different person. I have known thousands of genuine Christians.

    The way some human men state how the Bible was “canonized” has nothing to do with the true facts. It doesn’t take humans to recognize God’s Word!

    There are no proven scientific facts that show that the Bible is wrong. I would challenge you to give one proven fact that proves that the Bible is wrong. All you have to do is go out at night in a dark place and look up into the sky and you will know that truly there is a God. Just last night my wife and I took ten minutes and watched a beautiful sunset. Only God could paint such a picture.

    You wrote, “I found it increasingly impossible to accept that all the worlds troubles are a result of a talking snake convincing naked lady with no experience in life to eat an apple that God claimed as his property.” If you do not contribute all the woes of this world to SIN then how do you explain the fact that man left to his own will acts worse than a beast? How do you explain all the greed in this world? What about all the lust? What about very small children telling lies? What about small children being selfish and fighting? What do young people cause so much grief to their parents? Why do we have so much stealing? What do people use drugs? Why do we have jails and prisons? If the beginning of sin did not start with Adam and Eve then how do you explain Cain killing his brother Abel? If there is not a common source then how do you explain that every person, with the exception of Jesus Christ, have sinned and this starts almost from the time of birth?

    It did not take 4000 years for God to provide a “rescuer.” At the very time that Adam and Eve sinned God promised a redeemer. In Genesis 3:15 God promised a “rescuer.” “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel.” So when man sinned God promised a redeemer. This was the Messiah that the Jewish people waited for. You remember that Cain and Abel both offered sacrifices. God accepted Abel’s because it was a perfect lamb and blood was shed. Cain might have offered the best vegetable that he had but God did not accept his offering. Why? Hebrews 9:22 states: “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” So God taught Adam and Eve that they were to sacrifice perfect animals. The animal was dying in their place. This pointed to what John the Baptist stated about Jesus: “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” Thus God did promise a Savior and they looked forward to it just as we today look back at it.

    Romans 4:3 states: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” What did Abraham believe? He believed that God was going to send a redeemer=the Messiah who would take away his sins. That is why Abraham knew that he was going to heaven. Hebrews 11:10 states: “For he (Abraham) was looking forward to the city that has ‘foundations, whose designer and builder is God.’” Thus Abraham had the assurance that his faith in the promised redeemer would take him to heaven.

    I want to explain something from my own experience. As I said before, I was saved at the age of 14. I was at a meeting where the speaker explained that we were all sinners. God had been working on me for a week to convince me that I truly was an ungodly sinner. Then the speaker explained that Jesus Christ left all of heavens glory, was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life and then died on that cruel torture stake for sinners. As I was sitting there listening, I said to myself, “Am I really hearing what this man is telling me from the Bible? I am a sinner. Since Jesus died for sinners and I am a sinner then I have the qualification for receiving the salvation that Jesus Christ is offering. I bowed my head, confessed my sins and asked Jesus to forgive my sins. When I opened my eyes, the burden of sin that I had been carrying all my life was gone. In its place was a peace that I had never known before.” This has only grown more wonderful.

    I want to let you know that I have the 100% assurance of going to heaven. Not only have I done what God requires for a person to be righteous, but also God Himself has told me that I am going to heaven. I hope you are not surprised to find out that God does speak to His children. I have been reading the Bible all these years and have found it to be a most wonderful book that purifies the soul. A person can’t faithfully read the Bible and continue in known sin.

    I would advise you to put aside all the books by humans that you have read on the Bible and just read the Bible itself. If you do, I trust you will come into this eternal life, like myself and millions upon millions of other Christians have.

    And that's the shortened version. By this point I have tired of being sermonized. So I send the following, a bit more gruff, but not unkind to any extent:

    Thank you -.

    I will read the book, as time permits. No promise as to the schedule.

    Your zeal is not in question, and I appreciate your interest toward me. Actually, no, I did not read much in the way of anyone’s interpretation of the Bible. I read [as I have all my life] the Bible itself. It begins to fall apart in the opening words for me, and then gets worse.

    You asked me to explain the ‘beastliness’ of man without the Bible. Actually, I have met many, many non-Christians, non-religious people, that are not at all in that category. They are charitable, kind, gentle, faithful to their mates, and respectful of others. Some of them, in spite of being atheists, are objectors to war. None of those people are thieves, nor do they lustfully seek ‘sin’. These people do not believe the Bible, and as mentioned, many of them do not believe in God. They are good people from within. I am personally of that sort. I have been married 36 years, never cheated on my wife, do not steal, pay my taxes, treat my family and friends and neighbors with respect. I am diligent an sober. I am a deep thinker. I am kind to strangers and charitable. I must actually credit part of those traits to my former training as a Jehovah’s Witness. Part of it I attribute to my inner character. God does not get the credit.

    By your statements, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t know God, which I find very arrogant by the way. It smacks of self-righteousness doesn’t it, to state that “I am saved. I know I have correctly interpreted the Bible. I am good and will live in heaven. I guarantee it 100%. But that other religion, those Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are wrong and will not get what I have coming to me."

    I left them due to serious breach of ethical behavior that I became aware of. I agree that their doctrines are odd and unusual, compared to other more mainstream religions. But by and large they believe just what you do – that man is in sin, due to the lady who ate the apple, and that man needs salvation and that salvation comes through Jesus Christ. DO not interpret my words to mean that I defend them – far from that. I detest that religion. But not because they have it wrong and you have it right. But precisely because both you and they have it all wrong.

    Yes, when I sit under a star filled sky I see marvelous wonders. Wonders that are still expanding, showing the probability that that the universe began with a Big Bang as most scientist believe. When I see birds and animals playing in my yard, I enjoy it. Sometimes that joy is interrupted as a predator eats the creature I am watching. The world of ‘creation’ is filled with violence that makes the violence of man seem docile by comparison. Insects, snakes, birds are all killers, hunters, or the hunted. They kill without compassion. That speaks much more sensibly to the ideas of Darwin, survival of the fittest. When I see animals able to make great adaption in life, it speaks to the idea of natural selection more than a fanciful God seeking to amuse man with their antics – which to them is just a matter of survival.

    None of that sketch of my observations means that I rule God out 100%. I probably rule him out about 90% though at this point. Every preacher, every religion, claims they have it right, they have the inside track to God. There is more backbiting and rivalry among religion than in any other institution man has ever developed. There are more interpretations of the Bible than there are atheists in the world! The Bible cannot speak for itself, for even in your letters to me, you have had to interpret verses in ways that I may not interpret it myself as I read it. I dare advance that in the book you have forwarded me, there will be volumes of your interpretation of the Bible and what it says. In fact, by your assertions that Jehovah’s Witnesses have it all wrong, you are seeking to state that you have interpreted it better than they have, and that due to my having fallen under their mind-control, my viewpoint is likely skewed from yours, which is of course, right.

    I am sorry that this comes off sarcastic. I do not intend that. But I have heard it all before, as a Jw! The same “we have the truth, and those people over there don’t, because we read the Bible better than they do, we study it more or better than they do, we understand it because we have God’s spirit to show us the way and they don’t” attitude that they display, you display also. Everyone thinks they have it right and everyone else is going to hell for not listening to them. The more I look at religion outside of Jw’s – the more those religions look just like the one I left.

    Enough for now.

    Peace and Namaste to you and yours,

    Jeff

    In his latest reply he gets down and nasty:

    Dear Jeff.

    I appreciate your taking the time to write and explain more about you situation. I really feel bad how you have been greatly deceived and wounded by the Watchtower Society. I have heard the testimonies of many who have gone through the same think so to a very small degree understand your situation.

    I have really been doing a lot of thinking about what you wrote and here is my conclusion: YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF A FUTURE TO LOOK FORWARD TO. According to your beliefs, you are going to end up in a cold damp grave for eternity. All of you morality has not helped to have a different future than the worst criminal who has every lived. If everyone just ends up in a cold damp grave then what it the use of denying yourself and striving to be moral?

    Sincerely,

    P.S.

    Where did the material for the "big bang" come from?

    And my final reply:

    Dear –

    That comment is precisely what I was referring to in my last. Arrogant assertion that you have all the answers, all the answers that mankind has been struggling to find for thousands of years.

    You have no proof that you have any future of any kind to look forward to either. What a person believes, or doesn’t, has no effect at all on what is real. Belief is just that, what one thinks is true – but in this case there is no evidence of any sort to defend yours. OR mine for that matter.

    I find it extremely odd that you are willing to consider that the most complex being in the universe [God] had no beginning but that energy, or it’s substance in matter, could not have always been. I find it extremely easier to accept that matter [dead, non-living, non-complicated rock in essence] has always been – than to accept that a moral being with ability to create matter and life and universe has always been.

    So, where did God come from?

    Respectfully yours

    Jeff

    PS – You and all living creatures who eventually die will be sharing that cold, damp grave with me according to your own Bible.

    E-Gad. I expect he will reply again. I will likely tell him to get lost at that point. His last, BOLD statement that I have no future, pissed me off.

    Jeff

  • Nellie
    Nellie

    Jeff - Thanks for sharing. When next you list your attributes, be sure to include patient at the top!

    I've said to a few people that once upon a time, I knew the answers - now I know I don't. It's a bit unnerving - not being able to answer with authority, but I consider it more TRUTH that I can say, "I don't know," than the dogmatic approach of both the WBTS and your friend the good Reverend.

  • awildflower
    awildflower

    I have really been doing a lot of thinking about what you wrote and here is my conclusion: YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF A FUTURE TO LOOK FORWARD TO. According to your beliefs, you are going to end up in a cold damp grave for eternity. All of you morality has not helped to have a different future than the worst criminal who has every lived. If everyone just ends up in a cold damp grave then what it the use of denying yourself and striving to be moral?

    And....................................that's what I was waiting for So typical. But I love your thinking Jeff and your responses to him and I think I recognize who your talking about. Picked up his book and read about a chapter then shelfed it. All BS just in a different language.

    Thanks for sharing

    And Nellie, I like not having all the answers to.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF A FUTURE TO LOOK FORWARD TO. According to your beliefs, you are going to end up in a cold damp grave for eternity. All of you morality has not helped to have a different future than the worst criminal who has every lived. If everyone just ends up in a cold damp grave then what it the use of denying yourself and striving to be moral?

    Sincerely,.....Captain DumbAss

    AK-Jeff..

    You have more patience than me..LOL!!..

    "Your no better than the worst Criminal?"..

    LOL!!..

    The guy is an AssH*le..... I hope you tell him that..

    ....................... ...OUTLAW

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I want to pick apart a couple of things he said.

    The WT Society tries to get Witnesses to believe that the Watchtower Society and God are exactly the same, so when Witnesses realize that they have been deceived by the Watchtower Society, which they have, they also feel that they can not long trust God.

    Even if that were always true, he assumes that is it. What about the personal research and searching and praying that people in that situation have done? I did my share. I didn't just get stumbled by WTS, blamed God, and that was the end of the matter. I know more about how you tried to search for God than this guy knows, but just like

    I don’t think you came to your conclusion about the Bible from just reading the Bible but you have read the comments and ideas that some HUMAN MEN have written.

    I don't even have to comment on that one. You highlighted it for the same reason that we all know. Watch out for those that say you need men to help you when the Bible says the Word of God can do it for you, that you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

    The Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit, and it give life to all those who are willing to confess that they re ungodly sinners before God, believe that the creator has a concern for His creation and wants them to spend eternity with Him, and thus was willing to ....

    The same story. First totally let go and accept Christianity and the Bible. It will make sense later. I mean, you could say that for the Moonies or Mormons too.

    There are no proven scientific facts that show that the Bible is wrong. I would challenge you to give one proven fact that proves that the Bible is wrong.

    Easy enough to do, but discussions with Perry or others shows you that they leave their blinders on when dismissing real evidence. Anything that happened before our lifetime cannot be "proven" because of some reason to them. Prove that Abraham Lincoln or Henry the 8th actually existed- prove it absolutely. Oh, we can reason that it happened, but they want proof of anything that contradicts their world while excusing God for not proving anything.

    YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF A FUTURE TO LOOK FORWARD TO. According to your beliefs, you are going to end up in a cold damp grave for eternity. All of you morality has not helped to have a different future than the worst criminal who has every lived. If everyone just ends up in a cold damp grave then what it the use of denying yourself and striving to be moral?

    If pushed to look at logic, typical believers resort to fear.

    Thanks for sharing. Strength and peace to you and yours.

  • moshe
    moshe
    -The fact that Jesus lived upon this earth and did miracles is a proven fact. The fact that Jesus died on that torture stake is a proven fact. The fact that Jesus rose bodily from the grave is a proven fact. 500 believers saw the risen Christ at one time. Jesus said in John 10:28: "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I think that makes those us who are members of the family of God very secure!

    -and here is where the Pastor's car goes off the road and plunges off a cliff. The proven "fact' that he is so smug about, is just this--- the books of the New Testament say it happened. Give me the names of those 500- just one name, even and have it recorded in a historical document. Jesus is dead, that is fact- all the rest is speculation and hopeful expectations.

    added--Ex-JW, now Baptist preacher, Paul Blizard gave me a real dressing down for joining the Jewish tribe of my wife. I did him no personal harm by sending in my resignation to the Southern Baptist Church, but he acted like I had knifed all Christians in the back and I was going to hell for it, so to speak. . he was really nasty to me- then he says , he loves the Jews and he has made many trips to the Holy land.

  • poppers
    poppers

    marked

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    marked

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    Why do people write 'marked' in a thread? A bit pointless?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    A thread at JWS with a similar theme. . .

    When I told her I was "out" she said "Oh but you still believe in God right?"

    http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php?topic=9796.0

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit